Auston Stamm
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I was born with mild cerebral palsy, which affects my fine motor skill and visual processing. I was blessed to have a very supportive family and to be able to attend Westmark School in Southern California. Westmark specializes in teaching students with learning disabilities. Westmark helped me overcome my learning disability and succeed academically. I feel inspired every day to provide students with disabilities the supports they need to thrive in higher education institutions.
I am currently the Accessibility & Assistive Technology Coordinator at Saint Mary's College in Northern California. I am an expert in assistive technology solutions like text to speech, speech to text, and accessible web applications. I work with faculty to help them integrate universal design principles into their curriculum. I am also the faculty advisor for the DiverseAbilities Club on campus, which is a student-led club that arranges multiple disability awareness events each year.
Outside of my work I am on the board of directors of Ability Now Bay Area, which is a learning resource for people with cerebral palsy and developmental disabilities. Ability Now offers a wide range of in-person and online courses, along with organizational training in person-centered planning. I have been actively involved in helping upgrade their technology center with the latest assistive technology. Currently, I am working to expand their virtual online learning program and to leverage the latest HyFlex educational strategies.
I received my BA in Film Production from Loyola Marymount and my master's in occupational therapy from the University Of Southern California. I am currently working toward a doctorate in Educational Technology from Boise State University. I plan to explore how integrated learning management reminders can help students stay on top of their assignments. This kind of technology can be especially beneficial for students who have difficulties with organization and executive functioning. I am working on getting my Section 508 Trusted Tester certification, which is a free program provided by Homeland Security.
In my free time, I have started a YouTube Channel and website to cover stories and strategies relating to accessibility & disability rights. I am interested in exploring freelance opportunities that will allow me to develop my skills in accessibility and universal design.
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S01E27 Auston Stam.mp3 - powered by Happy Scribe
Welcome to the Enabled Disabled Podcast.
I'm your host, Gustavo Serafini. I was born with a rare physical disability called Pfft. My journey has been about self-acceptance persistence and adaptation.
On the show, we'll explore how people experience disability.
How the stories we tell ourselves can both enable and disable, how vulnerability is a foundation for strength and why people with disabilities can contribute more than we imagine. I hope that leaders, companies, clinicians, families and friends will better understand our capacity to contribute to the world and help enable us to improve it.
Auston Stamm is an occupational therapist, filmmaker, accessibility and assistive technology coordinator at St. Mary's College and is working on a doctorate degree in educational technology. It's rare to meet someone who is applying all of his educational experiences with such consistency and cohesion. It's like he's wasted nothing all as experiences or tools used to help people with a disability achieve their goals. Academically. Auston is warm, thoughtful, engaging, full of energy. As you listen, think about how much Austin has already achieved, how much good he's brought into the world and how much more he can still do.
Auston is a reminder that barriers can be navigated. Our limits are not where we think they are. I'm honored to promote and support people like Auston who help. Nourish, the possibilities in ourselves and each other. If you're enjoying the show, please share it with a friend, colleague, family member. Sharing with people really helps to show grow. It helps us spread the word and it helps us reach more people. Thank you so much. See you on the next show. Austin. Great to see you again. Thank you so much for taking the time to be on the show.
Yes.
Thank you so much. Gustavo. I'm really excited to be here and I'm looking forward to it.
Awesome. So let's start close to the beginning. You are. If we had grown up together, we would have been essentially neighbors, right. You grew up in Encino, California, and I was in Tarzana.
So pretty well, I actually want to note that I was I went to school in no, but I actually had quite the bus ride because I was more in the Santa Monica area and like Pacific Palisades. So it was really a jump over the King. And I was actually sometimes up at 550 in the morning to get on the bus and have like, an hour and a half bus ride to get over to.
And so that's a long bus ride. Alright. So we'll just take it as in La terms, an hour and a half is like being a neighbor.
Yes.
So when we spoke last time, I think it's really interesting for people to to understand, like when you were growing up early on, you were in public schools, correct. And your experience in public school was not the best. Can you talk a little bit about, you know what that was like and a little bit about your disability. So the audience gets a feel for a little bit more about you.
Yes, of course. I have very mild cerebral palsy. And growing up, you know, what really was challenging for me is I need extra time for processing. So, like, extra time for test and things of that nature. I also had a very difficult time when it came to handwriting and drawing. My writing was very legible, so it was hard for me taking notes in the classroom. And then in addition to that, I know when I was in the classroom, I also had visual processing. So it was hard for me to kind of remember sometimes people and places and just kind of getting the visual content that teachers would put up on the board, but sometimes difficult and with those things it kind of encountered.
I encountered issues with reading as well because when I was trying to learn to read, a lot of the reading was taught with a lot of visual images of like, this is a picture of an Apple or trying to get you to kind of connect the word with the image, and I don't really connect the images as well. So it was better for me to later I was able to kind of learn more phonetically, how to read and that really registered. But at the public school it was much more using the visual and then the word and trying to foster a connection that way.
And I would say, in addition, I also had a really hard time with speech, too. I had a stutter and it was difficult for me too. I actually was born with six tube operation. I was born but a double ear infection. Throughout my first six years. I got a tube operation each year on my ears to be able to hear because my hearing initially sounded like it was under water and that really impacted how I picked up language. So I had a lot of, you know, like I would pronounce words wrong and things of that nature.
So those are kind of some of the challenges that I was kind of encountering as I entered public school and trying to work around those things that I kind of. When I was there, I encountered a lot of the professors. The teachers couldn't always adapt basically to me and provide the accommodations that I needed to really engage in the classroom.
Understood. Did the the hearing challenges that you have also affects your sense of balance? Or was it mostly just did it not do I have to do that? It did okay.
In fact, that's funny. My mom would joke because I was like the first kid to climb up the big slide in the park. And then I got my tube operation and I was the kid scared to climb up the slide after that, because it really affected my balance and made me afraid of heights. Even to this day, I feel uncomfortable as I get my equilibrium kind of gets thrown off sometimes when I'm high up interesting.
And did you feel like, what were your friends like in public school? Did you have, like, a a good connection with them, or was it more like, you know, family and close friends outside of school?
I definitely was connected with my family, particularly my parents, my grandparents. But I also, you know, I had friends in public school. I actually developed some good relationships because I played basketball and there were other students playing basketball. Keep in mind, I was around this is about kindergarten to fourth grade, so I was younger, but that was something that I like to do. I like to play sports, and my dad had taught me to dribble with my left hand. I think I would have been left handed if I didn't have cerebral palsy, which is kind of interesting.
I pretty am I dexterous depending on the situation, I can really use either hand for a lot of things. I think I prefer my left side, but my right side is stronger. So I ended up using more writing with my right hand and things like that. But yeah, I had a connection there. The problem I really encountered was more bullying in school, particularly when it came, you know, a lot of that was set up sometimes by the teachers and how things were being done. One example that really occurred to me that really stands out is I was in class and fourth grade trying to take notes, and I was really struggling to keep up taking notes from the board.
And I could barely read the writing of the notes I was taking. And the teachers, like, no one can leave until often finishes taking notes from the board. And I kept everyone late for recess for, like, five minutes. And that certainly turned the class against me. And I remember one of the kids calling me, I think, stupid or something like that and telling me, don't make us late again. And there was those type of experiences that really mainly want to leave public school because I really didn't feel supported in that way.
But I did have some friends, particularly from the sports side.
And what changes. You know, I think you said before, like, your mom was a big advocate and taught you how to advocate for yourself. So she went on a a journey to find a school that would be more flexible, more understanding, more accommodating and included correct.
Exactly. And she was also a big advocate at my IEP meeting sometime. I was little and really advocating for me that I needed, you know, different accommodations and different supports. And what ended up happening with her was that she and my dad, particularly my mom, was looking at all different schools, and she found the school in the Valley called Westmark that at the time was a non public school. So it was pretty diverse because other students could get funding to go there. So it wasn't just a pure private school, and it specialized in helping students with disabilities, particularly Dyslexia and auditory processing.
And I was just really blessed to be able to go there. And they gave me a computer, and it really changed my outlook. I think one thing I just want to mention another story from my public school is that my mom was advocated to actually get me out of resource because the when resource was like the special education for students. And they were pulling me out of class to go there. And I just remember, like, in class, you get these little pretzels and everyone has them.
And I go into this resource room, and this woman has this giant Costco thing of pretzels. And it was like, he doesn't need the little ones. He needs the big ones. He's like, if you answered the question, you'll get this big pretzel. And it was just like, it's not a motivation thing. It's something deeper going on with the processing. And so my mom actually showed that my grades were going down by going to this resource program because I was missing class. So my grades went up when I stopped going.
It's a let's talk a little bit about that. What is going to those programs are supposed to be right are supposed to be flexible in understanding. They're supposed to help you actually accelerate through school. I don't know if they're supposed to push you, but you would hope that they would. But that's not really what ends up happening at those programs, right? That's why, like, my mom growing up, she was told by my occupational therapist, my first one here. Don't ever let your son go to a special school.
Always push to go to a normal, quote, unquote normal school, right? She had experience. She knew what that was. What's missing there. Like, what's the gap is. It because it doesn't make sense to me. It would. It would seem like you would want to structure it in a very different way than it is.
I think what really ends up happening at the public school environment is it's very hard for them to kind of figure out for each student what is the best strategies and what's the optimum time to go to the resource? Like West Mark, I would go I would stay after class, like, after all my classes for an hour with a tutor, one on one, working on reading and then working on organization. They didn't really have that built in flexibility to have someone there an hour before or after school to offer that.
So they're taking the student out of class to do it. And then kind of in addition to that, I think a lot of the processes maybe it was just me or me with one or two other students, and they kind of didn't really adapt to what my needs were. And it was just more of like, this is the general way we're kind of working, and I'm just going to follow that pattern rather than really trying to see and personalize the support for the student.
Isn't that something that I know you're an occupational therapist as well, and you went through that training. Isn't that something that forget systemically for a second? But having occupational therapists in the school environment would help that out tremendously. Right. Because your training is actually built towards understanding the person and figure helping that person problem solve what's best for them.
Yeah. The focus of OT is really on trying to understand the whole person in a holistic way and what their goals are and then finding the supports, particularly, you know, whatever environmental or modifications need to be made to the task so that they can achieve their outlook and goals. One way, I like to kind of look at it. You know, when you're talking about looking at some an OT framework, I think of the person environment and occupation model. It's called the PEO model for short. And what it kind of does is it looks at the person.
So I was a student, you know, having difficulties with writing. And the ultimate goal for me was to take notes. Now there's a lot of different ways to kind of do that. You could give someone a pencil to take notes. So that was more difficult for me. You could type to take notes, you could have, like, a smart pen that would record and then also let you hand write. There's so many different outlook of how to do it. But the end goal is to help that person, in this case with no taking.
But whatever their long term goal is, and a lot of times I don't think they're looking at that way of how we can modify the task. But support can we provide to help the students achieve their long term goal. So.
You agree that an occupational therapist is an important would be an important person to have at a school so that they can they can adapt to those students and help them fulfill their potential.
Definitely. I agree with that. And, you know, I had not growing up and it was really beneficial for me. Some of the things I worked on in the school, one of the things, you know, it's very simplistic, but I have a hard time sensing temperature, especially when I was younger. So if it was cold out and my mom gave me a jacket, I would wear the jacket the whole day and I wouldn't take it off. Even it got, like, 90 degrees or whatever. I would still have it on.
So she was really helping me be mindful and saying to take a moment and just at lunch, look and see how everyone's dressed. And then you can kind of make those decisions. And just little tips like that can be really helpful for people. I remember her also working a lot with me on my handwriting and trying to give me different strategies. One of the things that I had private OT as well. And they really worked with me on the time because I really struggled to tie my own shoes.
I actually in public school. I once asked a kid to tie my shoes because I couldn't tie them and keep bullied me and tied them together. And then I had to tell the teacher, Can you help me on tie my shoes? But that was a real challenge for me, and still is sometimes when it comes to, like, ties and things of that nature. But it's really great what OTS can help with and the wide variety of areas that they're able to provide support in.
Yep. Absolutely. So during your time at West Mark, what was that like to be in such an inclusive environment at that time? It was a smaller score. Right. So you had smaller size classrooms, you know, what were the teachers like.
What were those experiences like it was just such a positive experience because first off, there was like no bullying, because all the students had been bullied. So there really wasn't any real, like there were clicks. But there weren't any conflict really between the clicks. And then in addition to that, you know, I had this Alpha smart. It's like a little keyboard basically with a small black and white screen, and I could type all my notes on it, which was fantastic. And I went from being the slowest person taking notes to the fastest person taking notes.
And it was just such a great experience there. And then with being a smaller class, I could really discuss with the other students and with the teacher and kind of really dive into the different topics, which was really helpful. And I would say to that the after school tutoring I had was instrumental in teaching me how to read and then also working with organizational skills, because I really even to this day, I have a hard time sometimes with organizing things and taking the time to kind of make sure these are the assignments when they're due was really helpful.
I use those skills today to always write everything down in my calendar, apps and planners and things like that.
That's awesome. And during that time at Westmark, you got into film, correct?
Yes. I made tons of films all throughout my time at West Mark. What was really great about West Mark was that they actually they called it the Westmark News Network, and it was a live news show that they would do for all the students. And it went through all the TVs, and I think in, like, fifth or 6th grade, right. When I first got there, I was put in and I helped work like the switch board, and some of my friends were working on it. We all did different videos together, and it was really nice to be able to get the training because Final Cut pro.
That's a professional application, and we were able to get access to that and use the technology to make our little music videos and interviews. So it was really great to have to have that experience. And that's what really made me decide to major in film production later when I graduated because I knew that that was a skill that I had gotten to develop and really gotten to use much more than most students.
That's so awesome. It's such a good example of right, how empowering a school can be if when they do things correctly, like, so much potential, I'm just on this. It's in my mind all the time, like, human potential. The better our society is, the more we are fulfilling human potential, right? That to me, is why we're here. We have and just so beautiful to see a school structured that way and to see how it helped. It helps you grow and empower you to go into College as wanting to major in film.
So then what was College like for you?
College was really a great experience. One of the things that happened when I was looking at colleges was West Mark recommended Loyola Marymount, and it was really beneficial for me to be able to go there because of the fact that they had a great student disability office to offer support. And then they also, you know, had this healthy living dorm that I was on. And there were a lot of life minded students like me, as I never really was into, like, partying or anything like that. So I was kind of able to find friends to kind of go and go on hikes and just kind of drive around and explore and stuff.
And I found that really beneficial. I think the big transition going to College as a student with a disability is just getting used to talking about your disability with people because I think there's a tendency to want to hide that. And when I was there, it was a big change going from Westmark, where every professor they know about your disability, and they kind of have all the information, some of the professors, honestly, something that's kind of I don't know if I mentioned to you, but it's kind of funny is that I really wasn't told that I had cerebral palsy.
The label of cerebral palsy is something I really learned about my senior year at West Smart. Before that, I would tell every student, every teacher I had visual processing, and I had dysgraphia. My parents didn't want me to know about cerebral palsy because they didn't want me to use that as an excuse not to do things. So I was still doing sports and all those types of types, types of experiences. They didn't want me to use it to hold me back in that way. And there were a lot of other students there who had Dysgraphia.
So I didn't feel different in that sense. But when you go to College, you have to be comfortable talking about your disability. He's professor before class or after class or an office hours, I would go and say, I have mile through the policy. These are my accommodations. I really enjoy film. Is there any way you're doing, like, an art project? Please let me use film and some capacity. That's what I want to do. And a lot of them were very flexible and open to that. That was really beneficial.
That's awesome. How do you feel? Like if your parents had told you sooner, it might have limited you in some way or because it doesn't sound like that was part of your story that you were telling yourself and your internal narrative anyways, right. Like, how do you think you would have reacted?
I think I would have reacted about the same. I think I don't think it was something that was really limiting to me, but I think that, you know, my parents just didn't want to. I had so many different things going on and, you know, with speech therapy and occupational therapy and being bullied, they kind of wanted to try and just promote an environment where I was just like the other students pretty much. And that was there a way of kind of doing it. And then over time, I feel like it was nice to kind of know what real policy was and then making that connection because then it was like, oh, I have this and I could kind of this is my label, but it also kind of covers some of the things I experience because there were differences where I remember a student kind of saying at West Smart.
Oh, my Dysgraphia improved a little bit or whatnot? And cerebral palsy doesn't change that way. So then once I knew I had that I was like, okay, this makes sense by my Dystrophy is not changing or why this is what my array of different differences are, why they're like that. So it really helped kind of clear things up for me.
Interesting. And how did you learn how to talk and get comfortable with your disability in College? What were some of those? What was that moment when you realize was it with the professors where you realize you had to say something because they didn't know honestly.
A lot of that came to my parents and especially my mom. Like, I remember I would do a lot of, you know, developing scripts of, like, what I was going to say when I went into that first semester and talking with the different professors. I remember seeing my mom at the different meetings, talk on my behalf, sometimes about things. And she always encouraged me to kind of advocate and, you know, share my thoughts. And so I really felt like that really helped me because my parents were really having me kind of think about well, what are you going to say when you're in class and you need to talk to the professor about your different accommodations and your disability?
Are you going to be comfortable? Why don't we write something down that you can kind of use? Let's focus on your strengths and enjoying film and stuff. So having parents like that who are really supportive really helped me feel comfortable in that environment and make the transition successfully.
Your mom sounds like a very powerful woman. That's really cool. That's a nice thing to have in your corner, right. Growing up, what were some of the students, like at Loyola? How did that experience go?
It was really positive for me. I found my group of friends and a lot of that was all the people who lived on the same forest, which was like this healthy living floor. And so they all kind of enjoyed hiking and just different activities that were more outdoorsy and things and not so much the typical fraternity life and that type of stuff. So that was really how I kind of made my friends there. And then also, you know, making friends through the film school as well. Although I'll say one of the things I noticed as a challenge for me that I didn't think about when I first chose film as a major was just that when you're in with film, a lot of things happen late at night and I got to go to bed early and I need extra sleep.
And there are a lot of times where I be asked, Can you help on my set? We're filming all through the evening, basically. And I just couldn't do it. I volunteered on a couple different things, but then I always have to miss class, like afterward to catch up on my sleep. And I just was very impressed how some students were able to kind of pull these all nighters to do the film. And I just really wasn't. That was a limiting factor for me for making friends in that realm.
I just couldn't do that as much.
Interesting, I think. I think I don't know. But whenever I pulled an all nighter, I mean, it didn't matter. I was a mess the next day. I couldn't. I didn't function well. And most of my friends, most some people were the exception, didn't function very well either. So I just I don't know. I just called that procrastination when you have to film through the night.
I think what happened, though, there is just it's hard scheduling because you don't want people to miss the miss class too. So the the evenings end up being the time where everyone's filming. And then some students who are filmmakers. I understand this. They were less focused on their overall, whatever the main courses were like taking your English or whatnot on those grades. They were okay letting it flip a little bit so they could be on more of these projects. And I was more focused on trying to get the best grades I could and just trying to, you know, just trying to find my own balance, basically, for staying healthy and everything.
So I couldn't always jump on those late night film sessions.
That's a good point. And then was it your last year, your third year where you actually studied abroad for a year and you went to Germany, right?
Yes. I studied abroad in my third year. It was a really great experience. I went to Bond, Germany. It was part of Loyola Marymount connection, like, they facilitated everything, which was really nice. And what that allowed me to basically do is I could work with the study abroad office and the disability office to arrange different accommodations and one of the main accommodations I had. But I went over there was a smartphone with GPS. It was like the first Samsung Galaxy smartphone, and it was just a really cool experience because having that phone allowed me to travel around and get to my because you have to understand, I have base blindness and kind of really difficulty remembering places and bases.
So I use the GPS to get to work. So I've been working at St. Mary's now for, like, almost four years. So it's like I am very reliant on the GPS to get to places and, you know, having that being in another country without that GPS, I really wouldn't have been able to do it. But I felt so blessed to have it and then to be able to go on these different adventures. I went and I interviewed a Holocaust survivor in Berlin. I also did my whole documentary on anti Semitism in Germany today and kind of interviewing different people throughout Germany.
So it was really just an amazing experience to have that's awesome.
And you said that the people that you interacted with there were we're pretty nice, pretty accommodating, pretty inclusive, right?
Yes, they were. It was very inclusive. And, you know, I feel like it was just everyone was very welcoming at the center and very accommodating for me, which is really great. And I think it also helped me see that I really like editing on that trip because I found going through the footage and everything. I really like that process. I even was helping with some of the other students. I was on kind of looking at different editing things, and that trip kind of shaped me a little bit to be thinking about being an editor at that point.
What was the main takeaway from that documentary? I know it's slightly off course, but I think it's such an interesting thing to, you know, what is it? What was at that time, what was the nature of antisemitism in Germany?
I think what it really came down to was I interviewed a lot of Jewish people as much as I could from the different synagogues and going there. And what I really noted was that a lot of people there who were Jewish just didn't feel so comfortable talking about being Jewish in public. And I think that that's something that Unfortunately, I could understand that even today becoming more of a common thing of people wanting to keep sometimes their faith, even their ethnic traditions and stuff more private. And at the time, it really surprised me that people were so quiet about those things.
But I think in Germany, there's just not a lot of people who are Jewish. The percentage is rather small. And so there was just kind of that tendency to kind of keep things more quiet about that, like an example that came to mind was that I was interviewing the student, and he was saying that when he went to the mall to get a tie, he wouldn't tell anybody that he was Jewish. He would just say, oh, you know, I was like, if it's young before, I'd be like, oh, it's young before I want a nice tie for the high holiday.
He's like, I would never say that one's up there. Anti Semitic. I would just say, you know, I just want a nice tie for an event that I'm going to. And it was just interesting the differences of that.
So it's not necessarily that anti Semitism was high in Germany. It's more like you're such a minority. And you have that history of the Second World War where you just you feel like it's safer, easier to just not mention it.
Yes. I think that's exactly what it is. And kind of you could see that, too, when you look at how things are presented, sometimes there with different monuments and things of I think there's a big Jewish monument in Berlin where it's kind of a lot of sculpted, like kind of it looks like a cave sort of and you're kind of walking through and the blocks are very high up and you can see it's not like in close cave, so you can see up, but you can't see to the left or right of the blocks.
But it doesn't say anything that this is a Jewish monument for people who died in the Holocaust or that type of thing. It's not that direct. It's all very subtle. And I think that subtle me was something that I really picked up on when I was there.
That's interesting. And so when you came back, what was your next? What was your next journey? Why did you decide not to go into film?
Well, I want to add, when I came back from my senior year, I made my thesis to about students with disabilities and the difference between public school and private school. And I used all students from Westmark to act out the film. And it was a really positive experience work for me. And to get to go back to Best Mark was just amazing. And they were really helpful with it. And but those type of things kind of led me to think that I want to do film. And then I went to a post production company to work as an assistant.
And what I kind of found was that the meaning that I was taking from my films. I was choosing things that were really meaningful to me. But when you're editing the average blockbuster movie, it's not always so meaningful. And you're kind of sometimes they were really looking at, how can we trick people into seeing these bad movies? And I didn't want to be that guy was like, oh, I tricked a lot of people into seeing this. So that was one issue. And the other thing that kind of came into play for me was with my disability.
I didn't really realize at the time that it's so important as an editor to really pick up on the faces of the different people and picking up on different scenes and being able to recall them really quickly. And so I kind of struggled through a two hour movie to remember. And they're like, when is this scene or where is this character in this wardrobe? I wouldn't really remember those things. And so those two things in accommodation really kind of led me to be rethinking what I was doing and kind of led me to go to occupational therapy, as I really felt like I could give back and help people.
And that's what I wanted to do.
And I mean, kudos to you for understanding that it's not good to trick people into seeing crappy movies, which Hollywood, Hollywood doesn't do that anymore. That doesn't happen. They've gotten over that. But it's did you think or do you think today, even with all you're doing, like, maybe at some point, you'll go back and do a series of documentaries, like films that things that matter to you because you still have the skills, you still have the talent and you have that that vision. Is that something that you still hold as a possibility?
Yes, I definitely do. And that's kind of why I'm getting my doctorate right now an educational technology. And over the summer, I chose kind of an independent study type course where I was really working on coming up with different videos about accessibility, particularly like digital accessibility, which is really becoming more of a passion of my. And I think that having the skill set to be able to edit and create, I still want to use that. And that's why I've been, you know, trying to make those videos on YouTube.
And hopefully we'll find more ways to kind of integrate those skills. I would say two in my current experience at St. Mary's College, one of the things I've really been able to do is use my film background to make tutorial videos. I made a ton of tutorial videos and how to use all the different assistive technology and all of that. So I still get to really incorporate the film skills that I learned throughout Lil and Mary, Mountain and Westmark today, which is really great.
That's awesome. So tell us about digital accessibility. What's going on in that space that is that you're working on.
It's sort of like a Wild West. I feel like, you know, it's something where, you know, unfortunately, the way the Ada, when the Americans with Disabilities Act was written, the Internet was just not a thing at that time. It wasn't what it is today. And so what we're kind of seeing right now is this massive growth of the Internet and the issue of how can we regulate these different websites and applications to ensure that they're all accessible for people? And a lot of times, one of the big studies is like, the WebAIM million study.
They look at the top 1 million websites, and they analyze each home page for accessibility errors. And they're still finding, like, 45 errors per web page, on average, of different accessibility barriers that are present, which just shows that the awareness isn't there. And then also, the regulation really isn't there for requiring everyone to meet the Web content accessibility guidelines, like the WCAG AA standards that are becoming a lot of lawsuits right now. That's what's kind of cited as the accessibility standard. But it's just a lot of people.
I think when they're making sites and making applications and things are not always considering the accessibility side.
How do you feel about some of the companies out there web companies out there that have created those accessibility widgets that claim that they they they fix the website. I actually make them accessible.
A YouTube video where I had in the thumbnail, like an image of somebody selling snake oil, because I think that's what those things are making. Something accessible really starts as easiest to do at the beginning and the design stage. That's what you want. If you think about the Ada and how it impacts how buildings are designed when we're designing a building, it's not like, oh, we should put an elevator in after the building is made. It's like, okay, we're going to start with that because we know that that's part of the APA to ensuring accessibility.
And I think with a lot of these websites, it's both on after the fact. It's like, oh, we made the website. Now I just purchase this Widget or whatever, and it will fix everything. And it's more complicated than that. And you also really want to provide an experience for people. There's a real market for people with disabilities who are looking to purchase items, looking to use social media and websites and things. So it's really important that you think that you're excluding a significant portion of your audience that you're not thinking about digital accessibility.
So do you think that the concept of the widget, then is flawed, or do you think that the execution is flawed?
I think that you can't just say, like, some of these companies, I think what ends up happening is that they're kind of presenting it as a one size fits all solution. You purchase my product, your sites now double a accessible. No one's going to sue you, and it doesn't really work like that. Like if you think about even the most accessible website, well, what happens every time you're going to update that website? Right? You're going to add new content, new things to it. Well, then, if you checked it to be accessible two years ago and you add a bunch of new content, it might not be accessible.
So what really accessibility starts to become an interactive dialogue. And when I would really encourage anyone who has a website and they're concerned about accessibility, one of the things to be thinking about is not just how can you make the website accessible, which is certainly an important aspect. But also how can I create an accessibility page on the website that stipulates who can someone contacted their having encounter a barrier on the website? What is the recommended web browser to use? What's the recommended screen reading software to use?
Because whatever you're testing with, that's probably going to be the most accessible experience for the person. So I think those are some things that are really important to keep in mind as well. I.
Just was talking to Jonathan White. He's over at the Idea Center at University of Buffalo, and he's one of the universal design experts of the country. And the big theme there.
Right.
The big takeaway for me there is planning at the beginning is so important, but also educating designers, whether you're a web designer, whether you're a car designer, whether you're an architect or an interior designer, you have a bigger responsibility than you realize when you're making something and putting it out into the world. You know, it's. It's a real problem, right? To just think of something as I want to make this beautiful. I want to make this whatever it is the best performing thing that it can be.
But you have an obligation. You have a responsibility as a designer to say, who is this for? And how can I include as many people in this experience as possible rather than just trying to you now have this little subset of people or this quote unquote, you know, average that doesn't really exist in real life.
Yes, exactly. It makes me think of Cat Homes, this book. I think it's inclusive design, something like that. The title and what she talks about is you want to be designing, not just for yourself. You want to be thinking about how are other people going to interact with the product or service? You know, what are the ways that you can foster the greatest amount of variation for interaction possible? And a lot of times people aren't thinking in that way. They're just thinking, oh, I use it this way.
Everyone is going to use it this way. And one of the examples that she uses is thinking about the playground. If you go to a playground, like, how can the swings be used differently? How accessible is the different equipment that's there and looking at? I think there's a very inclusive water park in Texas that is specially designed for people with disabilities and to let them go on the Merry go round. But most Merry go round if you think about how it is, it's very not inclusive.
I don't think they even have ramps on a lot of them, and they don't know all the courses are grouped very close together, but they don't think about, oh, if you spread it out, you could have a lot more people. And there could be wheelchair accessible, and it could be now open to a lot of different people. If you can adjust the sound. So people on the autism spectrum of they can adjust the volume there. So it's not too loud things like that that they're not thinking about.
And it's the same thing with digital accessibility. There's so much variation there of how people are going to use your product, how they're going to navigate and just keeping that really using screen reading software, I think, is really important. Having a good understanding of how that software works.
It's great points. And I just I don't know. I look at I look at your life story that you've shared so far, right. And I see all these things that happened partially for self advocacy, partially because you found the right places. But look at look at everything you've accomplished. Look at everything you still have to accomplish. So it would be tragic if those things hadn't happened, right. Like, you are exceptionally bright. I can see you have a tremendous amount of empathy. Like, you know, you're a good human being.
The world is better because of what you've been able to accomplish, it's just the more I think people can understand that. And rather than stopping at the disability or stopping at what they perceive as a weakness, like, there's so much that we can still do. There's so much that we can still contribute and give back. Right. It's incredible. Yes.
Thank you, Gustavo. And I think that so many people people don't realize how having a disability can really shape how you see the world and open you up to a new perspective and a new way of seeing things. I think that's really important for people to understand. You know, there are so many different inventions and things and technologies developed all based around people with disabilities and trying to access different things. I think of Eric Wine Mayer. He is the first line man to climb Mount Everest. And he also did the whole, I want to say, the Colorado Rapids or Rocky.
It's like white water rafting trail. He did the whole thing, and he had all these really amazing technologies that he was using. He had something in his mouth that could sense where the rocks were, and it would basically touch his tongue on the right or left side, depending where the rock was. So he knew to go the other way. And it was just really amazing how technology can really enable access for so many people and using that and also shaping how you see the world and how you interact.
I'm reminded, I am on the board of Ability now Bay Area. They're an organization that supports people with cerebral policy, and they have a day center that they run, and they have a business center there. And there's a lot of artists at Ability now Bay Area that do amazing artwork and have amazing perspectives just on how they see the world. They craft their photography and digital art. I just think it's it's really important that people can see beyond and just see how having a disability can really be and really open you up to just so many different perspectives and things.
Yup engineer, like you said, ingenuity creativity and that idea of variation, right. When we typically think of evolution, what we're told that natural selection calls out the week and, you know, only the strong survive and what we miss, I think anyways, and I'm not a biologist, but I'm just gonna go out there and say this is that diversity is actually the real key. The more biodiversity we have, the more perspectives we have, the more variation we have, the greater our ability is going to be to survive as a species.
And definitely we miss that point. We get so narrowly focused on what we think it means rather than what I think the theory is actually saying.
I think to another example that comes to mind is like the curb cut, you know, because initially that was for wheelchair access to help get up on the sidewalks. But then you think about a mother pushing her baby. She benefits on the curb. But somebody on a skateboard benefits on the curb cut. So you start to see how it just creates broader access. And I think right now we're about to see a big digital change because a lot of the technologies for people with vision loss focused on scanning documents and doing optical character recognition.
That's what I do a lot with textbooks and things. And what's occurring now with, like, Apple Live text for their new operating system on their iphones and Mac. They're going to basically scan any photo you have for text, and it will be able to let you quickly highlight the address or whatnot and all that's coming from helping people read and the text to speech solutions that were used for people with reading disabilities. So it's just it just shows how that diversity can lead to greater innovation.
Absolutely. Absolutely. So what's what's next? Austin for you when you get your doctorate, what are you planning on working on? What's the next step?
I just really want to know I want to definitely explore digital accessibility. I'm very interested in trying to create inclusive content. I really like working with professors on how to design courses that are as inclusive as possible and integrate universal design principles. And I'm also really interested in different research relating to accessibility. And I think I recently worked with Dr. Hesse from Boise State University on a paper about the Merites Treaty and the importance of accessible books. I'd like to explore more things like that in the future, too.
Interesting. So can you tell us really briefly about what the issue is with accessible books? Like, why aren't.
So one of the issues going on right now with accessible books is that they called it a global book famine. And basically people with disabilities were unable to get accessible books all throughout different countries. And the reason is because the publishers weren't providing them to make them accessible, and the Copyright laws did not allow reproduction. So most Copyright laws did not provide an exemption for people with disabilities, or they were really specific and said only people who are blind, the only formats rail, and that really limited the ability to help people in the US.
We have the chase. The amendment, which provides us greater exception for anyone with a print disability and a print disability, is a very broad term that can include people with dyslexia. It's a wider range than just people who are blind or have vision loss. So what ended up happening with Americas Treaty is it loosened the countries that have joined it. I think it's like near 100 countries or more have signed on to it. And what they basically have done is with those countries that adopt Americas Treaty, they're allowing the education institutions, the libraries, nonprofits to go in and provide accessible books and remediate them to make them accessible, which I think is really beneficial and important.
But I also think that it's important for the publishers to be thinking about. Can we create a marketplace for accessible books that are just naturally accessible and, you know, kind of having the itunes of accessible books where anyone could go and just purchase one would be the next step that I hope happens in the future.
We talked briefly about this before, but it always it's just amazing to me that, you know, publishing industry, right? You hear, is book sales are down. People aren't reading anymore. We're struggling as an industry. And here's a market like a real market where you could be maximizing your own profits and your own dollars by just releasing these books in other forms and they don't do it. It's mind boggling.
Yes, it totally is. And it also it would just be great if they work together on a platform that people could purchase successful books from. You know, I think there are a lot of nonprofits like Bookshare that are trying to provide accessible books and access text is another one. But there is no centralized marketplace and it's rather unfortunate that it's like that. And it also creates it's just odd, like my job sometimes with the accessible books. I told you before, you will end up making a license agreement for one specific student to get so I can get a PDF of the book and make it accessible.
And it's like, couldn't you just make that book accessible? You could reach a lot more than this one student if you did.
Hopefully that changes. And I'm glad that you're doing. I'm glad that you're doing all this work. I'm glad that you're you're so committed to helping other people with disabilities get into higher education and have good experiences and and grow themselves as people. It's just it's really great to meet people like you and understand the work you're doing.
Well, it's amazing. I think what you're doing, too, with your show and just helping spread awareness about people with disabilities and providing a platform for to give people a voice is really important, because I just think that a lot of the issues that we encounter in the disability community relate to just people not being aware. A lot of times. You know, people I have professors all the time. They'll make. They'll send out, like, PDF and stuff that things are like a good example is, you know, there's a lot of email chains that would just be an image.
So people would just send here's an image of, you know, an event that's going to be next Friday. We're going to have a picnic or whatever. And I would be writing back. No one who's using a screen reading software is going to know what this is. They're just going to hear a image, you know, one, two, four, JPEG. They're not going to know anything about your event. You should put in text what it is. And then it also benefits other people because Google can scan for the date and the time and say, oh, do you want to make a calendar, invite and add this to your calendar.
So there's a lot of benefits to thinking more about people with disabilities. And once people are aware of it, then everything changes and everyone suddenly is typing text inside their emails and not just including the image and things like that.
Yes. That's so true. That's the hope at least right. And I think you're right. I think that the more awareness we can bring in, the more openness to have these conversations and share our experiences. It's going to continue to have positive impacts.
Yes, definitely. And I also think that now with the news and with the accessibility lawsuit, some of the things that have happened have helped shape it as well, that we may see more policy in the future, because I really think that that's another Avenue, as well as if you have an expansion of the Ada or some type of addendum that really goes into digital accessibility. We would see more with double a compliant websites and greater accessibility for people.
I would like, yes, I agree. And I think that if it could be broaden or rewritten that it should also apply to new new single family homes, right. Which there's no regulation for. And we see a real lack of accessible homes and universally designed homes in the country.
Yes, I remember you mentioned that last time is a really important issue, too. I hope that that could be included as well.
So, Austin, what what have we missed in this conversation that you feel is important to talk about?
I feel like we covered a lot of around with the different subjects. I'm trying to think so.
Maybe we didn't. Is there anything else that you are working on that you'd like to, you know, put out there to help amplify or something that you, you know, a new project, anything. Go ahead.
I'm just thinking, I think, you know, I think overall, you know, for me, I'm just really focused right now on getting my doctrine, educational technology and really trying to advocate for different accessibility issues. I think we covered some of the major, you know, topics right now that are currently going on. I think my main message for students with disabilities is just to be, you know, comfortable talking about the idea of with professors about your disability and really knowing that disability office is there to have your back.
That would really be my main message to any student with a disability looking at that transition, because I think that a lot of times people want to try and hide those things and it can be much more of a weight, you know, an example that comes to mind from my transition to College was that I didn't want people to know that I had base blindness. And so I remember my first week I'm meeting all these new people. I only knew about 33 students in my graduating class, and suddenly I'm meeting, like, a hundred students or more all at once.
And there was this one girl that was in the dorm and she had curly hair when I met her. And then she went to we went to the soccer game, and suddenly she had strained her hair, and I thought she was a new person. I went up to everybody and introduce myself to her and and then I was like, oh, I better tell everybody, it's a lot easier just to say, look, I have miles through palsy. I have face blindness. I'm sorry. I get confused sometimes with bases.
And once I said that it was just total release because then everybody knew and I just was able to feel much more comfortable being in entering the environment and people people knowing that. So I think it's really important to share sometimes with that. That can be a challenge.
Do you have a few more minutes? Because I just have a story that came to mind that I wanted to run by you and see what you think.
Oh, yeah. Go ahead.
So when I was in school, there were very few accommodations that I had. There were definitely some like, if the class was too far, if I ran a couple of minutes later, it wasn't a big deal and etc. But when I was in law school, I have one arm. And most like, this was 2002 to 2005. So by that point in time, most people had computers. The exams were types most people didn't hand. Right. And I remember somebody at student services saying like, look, do you want to take extra time?
Like, law school? The exams are super time sensitive, right? You had whatever it was, 2 hours and often times you're graded on not just what you said, but how much you could literally type out.
Right.
The more arguments you made, the more points. And I could type, you know, 30 to 35 words a minute. But there were definitely most of the class was typing faster than that. So they said, do you want extra time? And that was the first time I had been offered that. And I was thinking, Well, you know, I've never needed it before. So I'm not going to take that. And I'm just going to do it on the regular time that the rest of the students have. In retrospect, I think I made a mistake.
I think that it would have been better for me to say yes, I want extra time, but I think I only need half an hour extra as opposed to like, I think they were going to offer me, like, 2 hours extra, because then it felt to me like my thinking at the time was I'm getting an unfair advantage. If if I get all of this extra time or how do you evaluate that like, my my decision making and what maybe I should have done in retrospect, what do you think of that?
Well, I agree with what you're saying about, you know, because even if you took the 2 hours and you only use an extra 30 minutes or whatever, it doesn't really matter getting extra time. I can be helpful for typing in that situation. And I think we encounter a lot of times students who sometimes don't feel comfortable using all their accommodations will be like, we can offer you, you know, time and a half for double time. And they would say, no, I don't want to do that. And, you know, I think that is important to understand that if it's something that could benefit you and make it easier, you might as well to use that accommodation to help to help with that.
I think about it. You know, there's a couple of different analogies that kind of come to mind if you're going to hop in a car from, like, San Francisco and drive down to Los Angeles or something. If your friend is taking up all the leg room yeah, you could sit in the back seat and have no leg room, but it would be a lot more comfortable if you just say, hey, could you just Scoot your chair a little bit forward and I can have some room and similarly, with food, allergies everyone's comfortable saying, oh, I can't eat peanut butter.
I can't eat this or that. So I think being comfortable speaking up for yourself sometimes becomes really important and acknowledging that you deserve having that accommodation and that adaptation and not feeling guilty about that.
Yeah. It doesn't make you less then, and it doesn't make you. It doesn't necessarily give you an unfair advantage either. It's just your individual situation.
Exactly. I think that's really an important way to see it. I mean, I could have seen with my situation, typing everything that could have been like, I'm typing faster and everyone else for notes, but I just thought that that really helped me. And I knew the other students were able to day light, hand writing and everything. So it wasn't an issue for them. But for me, it really was. And that's why I felt really comfortable using that accommodation. But, yeah, I think that's definitely important.
Awesome. Thank you for that. Where can people find you? Where can people connect and learn more about you?
I have a website, Austin Sam dot com. And I also do a YouTube channel called Access Austin. I try and post videos each week about different accessibility related topics and things.
Fantastic. Austin, I'm so happy we connected. I'm so happy you're on the show, and I look forward to staying in touch and, you know, getting some future collaborations going.
Yes. That sounds great to stop. Thank you so much for having me. I feel so grateful to have this opportunity.
Absolutely. It was a pleasure. Have a great day. You too.