Fireside Chat with EDP Creator Gustavo Serafini and Producers Adam Leffert and Fei Wu
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In this special video episode, Enabled Disabled Podcast Creator (Gustavo Serafini) invited his two Producers (Adam Leffert and Fei Wu) to join in the conversation, sharing reflections and learnings from the past year of showing their not-so-brand new podcast. It's been a wild ride. Come join us!
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Fireside Chat with EDP Creator Gustavo Serafini and Producers Adam Leffert and Fei Wu.m4a - powered by Happy Scribe
Hi, everybody.
It's Gustavo, the host of the Enabled Disabled podcast. We have a very special episode for you today. We have Faith and Adam, who are my dear friends, cofounders of Enabled Disabled and some brilliant people. And we thought it was time to have another session where we talk about what's coming up next for EDP, what we're thinking about, what we've learned. Some good reflections. So a quick introduction of myself or description of myself. I'm a middle aged Latin American male. I have dark Brown hair. It's combined to the front right now. And I am wearing a Navy blue Polo shirt. I am in my living room, and there are some blinds and beige drapes behind me. Adam, welcome to the show. This is your first time here. Give us a brief description of what you look like in your room.
All right. I am a middle aged Caucasian male. My Gray hair looks a lot less funny than it did in high school, wearing a dark Brown shirt. Sitting in my office and behind me is a picture of roses painted by my grin. Right.
All right.
I'll do a quick introduction as well. This is Faye, and I think I was thinking, like, Adam and I should probably call each other. We're the co producers of the show. And so I am middle aged. I'm in my late thirties, almost 40, Asian American. I was born and raised in Beijing, China, where I very much consider home still. And I am in my office in Western Mass. I am long, blackish Brown hair and wearing a kind of a sweatshirt my mom designed. And I'm sitting in a room also filled with her paintings all around me. And I have a gorgeous view of the golf course and nature every single day.
It's amazing. So I remember let's hear from Adam first, because, Adam, it's awesome that you're joining us here. And people haven't heard it from you before, at least on the show, from where we started to where we are now. Where do you think the key, like, changes in your perception of what we're doing, who we're impacting? How have you seen that evolve over the last year and a half, almost since we've been doing this?
I have to say that for all three of us were people who kind of think about the big ideas and being very Frank about it. When you and I first started talking, we know you, of course, had your own experience of disability, you had your own opinions. But we didn't know whether we would be able to engage. We didn't even know who we talked to. Would they talk to us and how would it be taken up? And I've got to say that that was almost immediate, whether that's luck or just other people's spirit. But that started from the beginning. And things have really moved on from there to where it seems that you're engaging on the actual episodes, listening to guests, drawing them out, sharing the message, and then also getting involved, so called in real life, outside of broadcasting with working with other people and partnering with other people. So I don't know which are ready to be talked about yet, but those parts are pretty exciting.
I say we talk about all of them. So, yeah, we haven't announced it yet, but very recently I was invited to be on the board of directors for Omnium Circus. And I know that Faye and Adam, you were on that call when Lisa invited me to do it, and it was absolutely incredible and unexpected, and I don't know where it's going to go. But what I do know is the more I learn about Lisa, her ability to lead, her ability to surround herself with good people, and the more I learn about Omnium, the more impressed I am. It's really a tremendous organization, and I'm just thrilled to be a part of it. Where have you changed? I remember the last time we had this conversation a while ago, Ryan Gabauer really impressed you. You had some interesting interactions with different people, but where have you seen the evolution happen, and what are you excited about?
Yeah, I'm just excited about all fronts. And you didn't know what to expect when we started this project. Adam and I have been friends with you for a while, and we want to be so transparent about the excitement as well as the challenges associated with this endeavor, in particular podcasting. And we know we're trying to build a community, connect with people, and share their work. I'm really excited about potentially continue the track of sharing voices that need to be heard, namely people who identify themselves with a disability, as well as the rehab centers and hospitals, to really shed some light on the work that they're doing and to share different voices for people to realize that the support systems are there. I am in a very recent conversation with someone I've been passing hearing people to say, here's a single mom, here's a person who is living with a disability. Where do they find all these resources? So of course, we're privileged. All three of us are highly educated, and we live in places where there are a lot of resources. But what if people don't and people didn't grow up or brought up in such a way to know where to even look for these resources, how to negotiate, how to not to take no as a no, but maybe not yet or not right now.
So my thinking has evolved a lot around that, but also absolutely learning so much from so many people living with a disability. So much to cover today. I will stop.
I'll keep going. Were you surprised by either this question for both of you and did something that happened in the last year really take you by surprise, whether for the good or for the bad? Like, where were the expectations. I know we didn't really have a lot of expectations moving in. We were just like, let's try this out. It's important. Let's see what happened. But where was that first moment of, okay, we're onto something here, or this is a pleasant surprise that I wasn't expecting either one of you jump in.
All right, so I get into that as a but I actually want to come in from a slightly different Anglo to make sure we get to this, because I didn't have too many turns when you and I knew each other through the other business that you run. And I brought up the podcast and you said something that really has surprised me looking back, which is, look, I'm running this business. There's only so many hours in the day, and I'll say it, I'm tired. I put all my heart into this. I don't have time for a podcast. I don't have resources. I don't have energy, and I don't have time. And then you and I went back and forth, I nagged you a little bit this and that happened, and you made the decision to do it. What's been most surprising to me and really joyous to the point where I still get choked up thinking about it is how that energy is kind of exploded in you, even though there, of course, are not more hours in the day than they were then. So what I would ask you is, and I don't think this is about people with a disability as much as it is about busy people or people who feel like their resources are already stretched in, whether it's because they start with few resources or because they're working at a high level in that area, but they're also taken up by family and business and life.
So for you to speak to other people who might think, I want to do this thing, that would light me up.
But.
What has your experience been and what would you share with them that could help them either determine whether it's a good idea or get them off the Mark to start, because that's been surprising, seeing that explosion in your energy level and your engagement.
It'S a great question. It wasn't like that at first. There was that awkward stage of learning how to podcast, learning how to get better at it. I haven't mastered it by any means, but it feels comfortable now. It feels like something that I've grown accustomed to. I know how much effort it takes. I know what to do intuitively. I was led by my intuition, which is take this leap of faith because good things are going to happen. Where I noticed that the energy started coming from is meeting these really interesting people, growing my connection with them, helping them make other connections, and creating this sense of synergy, the sense of community, it really started to energize me. And I was like, okay, that makes sense. I've always been this way. I've just been so hyper focused on being an entrepreneur that I forgot, and I needed to rediscover that other part of myself that was there. It was just dormant. So the advice I would give to people is try to get some clarity and some more self awareness into why is this project going to let you up? Why is it worth the time?
Why is it worth the effort? The more clarity you have on that, I think the better off you'll be with maintaining that effort and that consistency and saying, yes, this is why I'm doing this. And this really matters to me. It brings joy to my life.
That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Feels right.
Yeah. I think it's so important to Gustavo, what you just mentioned about what lights up in you, it's also about what you can light up in other people. I think true, some people may not necessarily feel that way, but I think the majority of the people have that sense of that. They are, in a way, a gift to other people. And I remember recalling that when I was very little, it's one thing to at least for me to open up a present that feeling like, oh, that was so exciting. I'm so eager to find out what's inside. But then until I was old enough and my parents going to put me in that position when I was really young to create, either make something or to purchase something really small, a package and give it to somebody else. I just remember every time I watch someone, even these days with watching Adam or watching you where imagine you open up that tiny little box of chocolate that just drives tremendous amount of joy. But I think EDP is operating at a much, much higher level. We have thank you letters, love letters and gratitude letters from the guests themselves, their friends, people we have never heard from before, their parents, their siblings, their caregivers.
Do you remember any recent occurrences you could mention by names or give it anonymous? Like any letter, any words that hit you hard in the past year.
Probably too many to remember. But for me, well, just being invited to the board of directors of Omnium, that hit me really hard because I was doing the work anyways outside of the podcast, to help connect them to people that were going to help them. It was a natural thing of I really believe in what they're doing. I love these people, and I want to see it succeed, and I want to help. So to be invited into their family, into that circus. Right. I'm a part of the circus now. I never thought in a million years I would be. It's fantastic. But I was doing it not with that. I didn't have that intention in mind. It wasn't like, okay, I want to be a part of Omnium. I was just doing it because of the joy of spreading their message, of impact the lives that they're going to impact for people with disabilities and people who are non disabled is going to be game changing, in my opinion. And I just can't wait. I know that the first time we go and see the show together live, like, I'm going to be holding back tears the whole time because it's going to be super emotional.
Yeah, so true. I mean, we cry regularly at the regular sort of circus and to watch, like, women, young people flying around and really challenging themselves. There is no easy act in circus, period. And now I see everyone with a visible or invisible disability being on stage. I think most of them do have a visible disability is just an incredible thing, too. I think anyone who watch the show will realize that we are actually limitless and there's so much we can do. I think it's just going to go the impact is going to go beyond words.
Yeah, but it's a great question. And I think the other thing that I've gained clarity on with the podcast is we had Christina Ryan on the show. She's an enormously successful disability rights activist in Australia. She's spoken at the UN. The work that the disability activists are doing is tremendously important. But their approaches fighting to get in the Zoom right. We're fighting to say we have a right just as much of a right to be here as everybody else. It's tremendously important. My 20 year old self really aligned with that way of thinking about things and being in the world. Meeting all these people and having all these great conversations have shown me that that's not where my heart is, where I think we can all make an equally big impact is, okay, Seth, Godenstyle, we're in the room now. What are we going to do with this privilege and this opportunity of being in the room with all this other people? What space are we going to hold? What minds are we going to change? I do see it as an obligation for me, and I'm not saying it's a moral obligation or an ethical obligation for anybody else, but I see it as my obligation.
Now that I'm in the room with you, how can I change your perception of what a person with a disability is capable of? How can I change your attitudes? How can I make the next time you encounter somebody with the disability different, less awkward, more engaging? And what really drew me to both of you when we met in person several years ago at VA gathering was Faye, you're like super curious human being, and you're inquisitive by nature. You want to know. And I think when you approach people that way, like society today, we're so scared to do that. We don't want to say the wrong thing. We don't want to offend anybody. But when you come from a place of curiosity, genuine curiosity and inquisitiveness. I want to hold space for people like that. I want to learn about you just as much as you want to learn about me. And that's where the magic happens. And I think, Adam, you take a more cautious approach with people. But once you get to know that and you break through those barriers, you're the same way you want to know. And you have a very interesting perspective and way of helping people see the value that they bring to the table, that I think very few human beings have that capacity.
Thanks, man.
Well, Adam is a very short answer, but we're all very touched here. And I think for people who can see us either on Spotify or listening to us elsewhere, Gasta, you have a very young energy kind of that boyish we think of you. You have a very kind of boyish energy to you that serves this line of work very well. And I appreciate you saying that you are willing and you're to hold that space for me, because not everybody does, regardless of what we do, what we decided to do. And my encounter, I remember meeting BJ, maybe months, just months before, maybe a couple of months before I met you. And that was a really interesting experience. It reminded me of how important this line of work is that I met you and met you on Zoom, of all places. So I was completely unaware of the disability you identify with or what PFF even was, frankly. And never I saw this kind of abbreviation of what it is. And I looked it up. And clearly, I remember not seeing a lot of study or explanation in depth about what it is. So I assume, though, it's just like, okay, sometimes I just use the word it's like, oh, probably.
I don't know if this is something significant they can't really tell. And then meeting you in person was that moment of seeing you. To be quite Frank, we can be. And it's a privilege is then pretty quickly, we kind of forgot about it altogether. We're just people hanging out together. It's us through a plus, Helena, who's not speaking which pro should get her on the recording or actually sharing the conversation you two have as well. But I think what I realized with all four of us, including Helena, we happen to be people like middle aged people without children. And watching your journey, as well as my own journey, my own creative journey, but more so with yours, I realized that the concept of we're here on this Earth to reproduce, to make babies, to create our own family, making it perfect. They go to the right people, go to the right school, marry the right people this and that, make enough money, live in a perfect house, have two and a half children and a dog. It changes that concept so drastically for me because I look at your community people you have interviewed or otherwise.
I see many of them as our children. I know we're like probably age wise. That won't work. I see them as our children. I see them as our siblings, like actual siblings, brothers and sisters, our mothers, people we care about that we don't need a label for. And I feel very strongly that many of them would choose to be with you for the rest of your life, and we certainly will be there. And that's a really powerful thing for me to realize. Like, you know, we are maybe alone at any point, but we're not lonely. You have built a network of friends and connections.
And that's something that I learned. I mean, you told me that when you were trying to convince me to start the podcast, right. It was your journey of phase, world and everything that it brought for you and all those connections and relationships and opportunities to do more of the work that mattered to you. Very true.
And Adam has witnessed both from the get go. So, Adam, what are your thoughts on parallels or comparisons to Face World versus EDP, and how does it impact you as a producer for both impacted me a lot.
I guess the theme that I see is kind of a before and after before. So Faye and I started Facebook maybe eight years ago. And being so called on the inside, there are some differences. We get to see performances. We get to hang out with certain people that have these incredible life experience and just talk to them privately and say, hey, what was that like? What is it like to hold a rope 100ft in the air and your brother and the other hand, what is it like to negotiate somebody's life in a hostage crisis? But at the same time, it really is the same being on the inside and the outside really is the same. So what I wanted to turn around and kind of askabo was, anytime I do something like you go to a party, you have an image, it's going to be like this and you get there and it's nothing like that. So to sort of share with people who might want to start a podcast or might want to become an interviewer or partner with these organizations, what you've now found doing the work you do kind of with this journey is different than how you thought it would be.
So that other people who are trying to make that decision or trying to get ready can maybe be more encouraged or better prepared.
My expectations were I'm going to try this out and see if I like it. I'm going to see if this is something that I'm good at, see if this is something that I enjoy, and hopefully if I do, it's going to turn into something sustainable. So those were my baseline expectations. Your prediction, Adam, was again from the experience with Bay, was correct. Which is the podcast is important, and it's something that we want to nurture and grow and make sustainable. But it's going to lead to so many other connections and opportunities that you're not even aware of. So you have to dedicate the time. You have to commit to that experiment, I think more than just five episodes or ten episodes, I would say. So if you're doing a weekly podcast like we are, I'd say commit to three to four months of that and see what that looks like afterwards and then reevaluate. But if you're doing otherwise, there's not enough of a sample size, right? There's not enough experience to really know what doors are opening up, what relationships are we forming that are going to matter to us so much later on in life or throughout our journey?
Give it a real opportunity first before stopping. That's the main advice I would give that makes a lot of sense.
And I think that's a good time for me to share. So when Faye and I came to talk to Savo and then move forward to work with Cassava and EDP, they weren't written down and they're not really formal. But we did have some sort of principles of things that we have found to be true from phase world over the years. And I think one of them is this idea of kind of a non transactional, though, that sounds kind of mechanical, giving of help or value or support. And just to say what it is that we go through our lives and we really do try to help the people on the podcast or the people served by the podcast and do these things. And we absolutely do not expect anything from those people. And we don't even really expect something from those people as a group. And it always happens. And I think when I say always not from that one person. So we'll meet somebody and we'll do whatever we can to take barriers out of their way or to bring them assets or to give them a new idea or new perspective. And if that never brings anything back to us, ever, deeply in my heart, that is absolutely fine.
But what we found and what I told Gustavo when he first heard, yeah, that sounds nice, but I think I could ask you but has turned out to be true. If you just keep doing that and then big picture enough comes back that you can keep spending that time on it, whether it's emotional or financial or career wise or having what Tony Robbins used to call his kitchen cabinet, a bunch of people you can just call if you have a question about something, a palliative care, BJ. Miller, we have a question about negotiation. Chris Wallace, Tory Clark for business. So there's a joy in that because I'd say, I hate that whole multilevel marketing. I do this for you. You do that for me thing. Come to my house and I'll Bake you a cake and then you got to sell my Tupperware. I just don't like that it doesn't feel good from any side. But this idea where you can get up in the morning and say, I'm going to spend this time, I'm going to help these people, nothing comes back. That fine. And then to realize, yeah, stuff does come back. Big picture.
That to sounds grandiose, but to live that way has been really joyful to sort of separate that gain from the effort. It's just a fun way to live. And it's worked out well.
So well said. I think it's so interesting. And I do want to kind of Pique people's interests in terms of our growth as well, because a lot of people hear the word podcast and they think about downloads and how much money you're making. And clearly, we just stated that's not the reason why we kind of lean into this. And frankly, we understand that disability is a sensitive topic. And it wouldn't even feel right if we go in there and trying to work with only work. Certain brands do things a certain way. We want to be. Owen Video So lately I stopped noticing it. We stopped looking at the analytics. By the way, it's a really healthy thing to do to not stare. It's like every other people get on the scale every single day and freak out and panic and self criticize. Same thing. If you look at your stats every day for your podcast, it actually could be a detriment. So we looked at it very recently. We do it like quarterly or so. And we're very surprised by basically right now a few hundred downloads every listings every week. And we're thinking, wait a minute, I was like the math.
We only release one episode a week, and these days it's hard to have hundreds of downloads per episode. Like who are really coming to listen to us. And every single week I see the top episodes of wow, each week these are the top five. Last week, these three were the top five. So all the older episodes are still getting all the attention. So that was really intriguing to me. I'm not sure what you guys saw or felt when I sent that email.
Yeah, I felt really good. I felt like, wow, there's people I think Steve Levitt from people I mostly admire huge podcast. He actually mentioned it on a show recently. He said there's so little, there is some good data, but there's not enough. And it's really hard to tell what the listeners are engaging with and what they're not engaging with. It just doesn't break out that way with podcasts. And you see it from who knows how many downloads they have. But I know it's way, way, way more than we do because they're a huge brand in the space. And he's seeing the same thing, which is we're not sure what we're doing right. If the numbers generally are going up, that's a good sign that people are involved, engaged, appreciating it. And I do have three to five people who reach out to me every week that I know they listen to every episode or very close to every episode, and they're giving me feedback freely about I really like this. This is what I like about that episode, and that's super helpful. I would love it if more people did that.
Yeah. As far as reaching out, I think it's a great time for me to kind of turn the camera on to and say to anyone listening, what do you want to know about? Or what sorts of guests would you like to see? So I'll stop the list there broadcasting. What do you do? You cast out your words and your feelings to this wide audience, but we want more coming back, too. So what do you want to hear? What do you want to know? What questions you're wrestling with that we can engage with to kind of keep this year fresh and to know that we're serving those people that we may not have heard from.
So I want to tease out some of the challenges as well, which is interesting, guys, which is what I have learned. That number one, this is a niche podcast. We want everybody to be interested and learn more about disability, but we're cleanly aware that not everybody is or think this is a priority. I think once people experience whether their loved ones either have gone through an accident or a child is born, all of a sudden they need to learn something. It's a hot topic and they're all over. They'll find every resource they can. I think what's interesting in the past year is that we learned a couple of things, that accessibility is a great area because it was really challenging, if not impossible, for us to accommodate every single need because I realized how basic we were, meaning not. We as a consulting and marketing, always trying to build these compliant websites, and we're so proud of it. And I realized, oh my goodness, literally, we're solving this problem for a few people or a few groups of people, and that's it. So I think we kind of work towards that goal but realize our own limitations so that's one area we can talk about.
The other is my observation of just how nimble, how incredibly smart our guests are. I had this fear of thinking in order for us to book a show, for instance, we do ask for a lot of information up front your bio, your social media links. We want to help promote their work, whether our guests have written books or spoken somewhere. And then I didn't really think about the fact that it takes a little while to type things in, to look things up. Frankly, even for Phase World, I have a lot of guests who would just book the session and put a lot of NA NA, and then I have to chase them down and get the information. But the funny thing was not trying to be humorous on purpose. When we dropped that link in the abilities lab and Expo. Ability Expo. We welcome three to four quadriplegic guests to the show, and they booked a session so quickly and they enter all the information correctly. I'm not going to lie, I was a little surprised. And I think it taught me a lesson of thinking about the preconceptions that people have about Asian people, Asian American.
I think we all did have about people with a disability as a group, as well as individual disability of what they're capable or not capable of doing. And I think we're wrong a lot of the times. And I realize a lot of the so called able body people have way more somehow, maybe more mental challenges or some other sorts that prevent them from achieving what they need to do. So my learnings.
I like that. Faye, thank you for sharing that. That's important. I think we do. First of all, it's a great experience to see you have a certain set of expectations. Those expectations are surpassed and maybe they're low or maybe they're not low, but whenever they are surpassed, at least you have the awareness to say, like, wow, I was wrong about this. I learned something. I'm not going to carry the same set of expectations next time. And that's where I think part of the work is as people, we all have our biases, we all have our flaws. And when people surprise us to the good, we adjust those expectations. And the next time, the next approach that we have with another human being is better.
Yeah. I would just add two cent. So that's a great common back what I just said, I didn't realize that based on I was proven that I could be wrong in many different situations, including face, world and life from 10, 20, 30 years ago. But it's also very true that now whenever I am faced with a new situation where when I have doubts and certain things, I do quietly take a few breaths and say, I'm probably wrong about this. I am absolutely open and welcome to New Opinions. This is an opportunity for learning, and it's okay to be wrong that it's really not a big deal. It's time to learn. Adam, what are your thoughts?
My thoughts are a question for Gestavo in some sense, principles. All right, I got you, man. You know where for you to go. Principles are things that by definition, don't change, right? Contribution, connection, respect, almost by definition are things that are always the same. But I'm curious, as we sort of round out this year of EDP of the podcast, what do you want to do differently, or where do you see things going in a new direction for this year? That's coming up great.
Question. I would like both of you to answer that question as well, because I think it's really cool to have the three of us on here so the audience can hear how we're all thinking about it. I think that's important to get a glimpse of our internal dialogue and how we see things. So I'll answer first, and then I would like you both to answer that question as well. Definitely more of a focus on the rehab centers. I think those are really some they're doing some fantastic work. There's some medical professionals that have a very different perspective to how to talk to, how to treat, how to look at disability. I think that's going to be huge. I do want to get into accessible gaming. There are a lot of gamers who have a disability who have not been given the opportunity to fulfill their potential and their skills and their challenges. Microsoft just released product, I think maybe a year ago. That sort of is a good first step to bridging that gap. But there's a lot more work to be done there, and I think that's an interesting area to explore. Thirdly, I think we have some really great partners, people like Omnia and people like Kimberly Warner from Unfixed Media, people like I want to give a special shout out to Courtney Marsh, the director of Chow, where I think we can explore different ways to give people more career ideas.
Right.
Like, how do you become a writer? What's the importance of writing for a living? How does that give you more independence? How do you become a creator, gain more independence that way? So I think those three areas have a lot of potential for helping more people.
Very cool. Yeah. So I haven't been a while thought about the individual level. We did speak about it a few months ago, but that's great to be reminded of. And yeah, you kind of stole my answer in the sense of partnerships or collaborations and just to sort of sketch out and again, to call out to people who are listening or might know people out there, what might that look like? Just at the high level? It might be sharing their story. So to volunteer, you mustave goes to rehab and uses this platform that we built to share what they're doing or who they want to reach or the message they want to send out. And then for you at kind of like a personal level, it might be either, as you mentioned me, and you'll bring it up when it's appropriate, sharing what you've learned as a person with a disability who's done all these things over these decades, informing or testing or giving feedback to whether it's devices or enablement affordances or architecture, building materials, different industries you've been in or learning, maybe telling people stuff, you know, or maybe educating yourself, say, oh, I want to learn more about universal design and then sharing your learning.
So we've talked to financial institutions who are doing special things with their employees, with their stakeholders around disability and inclusion. So synergy is overused. And I think all of us love the meme from Silicon Valley about synergy, but somebody's out there and they kind of need us to make it better, and we need them to make it better. And that's kind of what Omnium was and that's kind of what phase world and my tech work and EDP is putting these things together and kind of having that explosion. So again, a call out to people out there who feel like, oh, if we worked together, we would have almost everything in place to really do something bigger. I think now that it's got to keep building. Now we've built this platform to a point that that would be exciting for things to happen in the upcoming year. More of those collaborations and partnerships.
I think partnerships and collaborations are so key to every single creator and frankly, every single business and human being. But I noticed that, Gustavo, that you have a very natural gift in making these introductions because people think it's a trivial thing. It's really not right. We had many years of experience, and for me, as an immigrant, I don't think I'm shy by nature, but just speaking a second language or not looking like everybody else in a certain domain, that could set me back a little bit naturally. But I realize it's a skill because, Gustavo, what you have done is to not just push people together, push people together to say, get this for free. Why don't you work for that person that you do something with what we call double opt in. So you do have to check in with a couple of people to make sure that they understand what they're getting, what's in it for them versus what is the nature of this collaboration where it is just saying hello. And I frankly noticed a lot of people have so many connections, but they avoid these introductions or avoid being the person to help the other two or three people meet because it's a lot of work.
What I just said right, it doesn't just happen naturally. You have to put the right people in the same room, whereas people can be pissed off sometimes. So how do you feel, like teach us where the listeners are a lesson? How do you identify two needs, the needs and the right people to be brought in the room together? And what do you do if you like, say, make a mistake? Again, it's not a big deal where people are not really a right fit. Like, what do you do from there? Just curious.
Well, I learned the double opt in from Adam. I think I did that naturally most of the time. But there were definitely times in the pure audio video lifecycle where I didn't do that. And sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't. And so Adam kind of codified double opt in. This is why you do it. You do it to make sure that the two people who are meeting want to meet, that it's the right time for them to meet, and that you kind of lay the groundwork of here's why I think you both would be a great fit with each other and could explore some collaboration. So it takes thought. It's the thought process of, oh, I'm not connecting this person because they're a billionaire and this other person isn't, and they have a business idea that just doesn't work. Most of the time, you're trying to think through. How can both of these people collaborate or meet each other and do something together that would benefit both of them and that they're both interested in? So it takes thought. It takes practice, and it takes the time to think it through and make sure that it's going to work.
Yeah. I had one come back as a no to me that I think it's worth sharing was actually kind of fun in retrospect, Even though it was embarrassing for a couple of seconds. So totally grew with Gustavo about the thoughtfulness. And then there comes that find out time, right? You have to actually go check whether it's real. So I met a gentleman. God, it was probably almost 20 years ago, who works in Hollywood, done a bunch of stuff. I don't want to identify him, but he's done much cool stuff. And then I met somebody else who's in the same industry, and the first guy was like, oh, my God. My favorite TV show is X. It's the best. I love that show more than anything. And I was like, wait a minute. I know somebody who works on that TV show X. So I did the double opt in, and I reached out to the first gentleman. I was like, because when you talk to first person, you don't say the second person is. So there's no downside, you know, I know someone works in that show. They're awesome. And I just love to put you guys together.
And the guy wrote back. He's like, I hate those. He's like, that was cool. That's what I need to know. He's like, I find those things awkward and weird. So of course, I felt physically bad for, like, a couple of minutes. And then I was really glad I did it, because I would have bet anything that this would have been, like, my greatest achievement of introductions. And he was like, no way. I was like, wow. Okay. So you got to think about it, and then you got to just find out.
Yeah. It's such an art, and it's something that I think all three of us enjoy doing so much, because we see magic happen. Like, I'd see you, Gustavo talking to Kimberly Warner. Then the next thing you know, you're in her documentary, in her video series, and then you and her and someone else joined this conference, a livable conference, and it's just the synergy is accumulative in a really beautiful way, and then you'd never know what's going to come out of that. Courtney Marsh is another example who was nominated for, I think, an Oscar nominee. And you hit it up. So it's incredible. I can't even really describe what it is. But it's even without someone very in a very straightforward way to point out this day, this thing happened, where this is going to happen. This is how much money you're going to make. This is where you're going to be famous. Fortunately, none of that really matters. I think what happens with being a creator, for what I can see from you, for my own work, is that it really grounds you and really make you pay attention to this moment. None of us is on our phone right now.
I always mention this. We're all busy, Adam probably have to Peel off very soon. We've probably wrapped this up so you can start working again. But for the 45 minutes that we have together, this is it. This is our world. Like, the three of us really matter. Nothing else really does. Yeah. Final thoughts, guys.
So there's one thing I'm not sure. We can always edit this out if it doesn't work. So I'm going to say something a little bit sensitive. I have noticed when we have made some introductions in the past that when we are introducing one person who has a disability to somebody who doesn't or to a group of people who don't, there has been a little bit of more trepidation or a little bit less interest or kind of like, why are you interested, Mr. And Mrs. Non disabled person, in helping the disability community? And I would like to encourage people like me who have a disability to not think that way, to be open to the possibility that there are plenty of human beings out there who are nondisabled, who are curious, who aren't interested, who do want to help, or who do have something to bring to the table, and that it's okay to be cautious, but it shouldn't stop you from exploring those opportunities and those connections.
This is such an important point, and it absolutely needs to be kept in this episode because you touch upon something that's so important that we should continue the conversation probably next week or something. There needs to be a part two on that is vice versa. I noticed that there's always a risk. There's like a hesitation of somebody without a visible disability trying to get into. We're trying to learn more. And sometimes it can be an awkward situation. The moment. Sometimes I mentioned Unable disabled podcast. I'm a producer, and so cool. I love just for a moment, they just look at me, it's like, just like, oh, is there something that Fey has we just didn't know about? I think that moment is kind of funny, which I do, I do recognize as someone with an invisible disability. And we don't have to go on and on about this, but we do. And then that's fascinating to me. And I really used to have to come up with an excuse, and I don't anymore. And my mom reminded me that ever since I was in elementary school, possibly kindergarten. But I remember more clearly elementary school, middle school, high school.
And there's always at least one or two of my really good friends had a disability. And to be honest, I know growing up in Beijing back in the were very different places. It's a very different place now culturally and everything. But a lot of the kids with a disability, they were very isolated, especially in elementary school. They were absolutely bullied. And I always remember feeling very wrong about that. And a lot of these people that I recall are all girls. Imagine that. And they just remember they had such strong feelings. They were crying, actually, both of them are mentally challenged, but they're crying. I just remember, wow, they're human beings. They have feelings that you are hurting actively and on purpose. And it left such a scar, I think, in all our hearts to realize that you have to stand up to this. And I did. And then as a result, that's how we became friends. And so I don't think for this part, I don't really like the book Lean In, but I think in this situation that we need to lean into it and kind of lean into the mystery, because it's not we're all just simple, plain human beings.
And that's all right. It's a little long winded than I was expecting.
But we should explore that more. It is important. And there's things that we can say about Hollywood and there's things that we can say about, you know, who can speak for whom and who can creatively. Can somebody who doesn't have a disability write apart convincingly of a character who doesn't have a disability? I think there's a lot of good things that we can say there that need to be said. I look at somebody like Courtney, who is nondisabled, who actually never had any friends or people that she knew growing up who were she travels to Vietnam when she's 20 to shoot at Film Encounters, this rehab center where essentially orphan kids who have a disability or who have been partially because they've been exposed to Agent Orange, and she completely leans in and dedicates five years of her life to telling this story. We should celebrate that. We should celebrate people like you. We should celebrate people like Adam. We should celebrate people like Courtney who do give us who do show the empathy and the imagination and the creativity to see other people who are different as human beings, just like we see ourselves.
Absolutely. Adam, final thoughts from you.
Final thoughts from me. Following on from what I appreciate that. Costavo said for me quickly. So back in College, there was a guy and he taught deaf kids. I don't know what he taught them, but those running around with them and doing stuff. And I remember thinking, oh, this is such a different kind of guy. This is a different sort of person, like some kind of little miniature mother Teresa thing. And then fast forward many decades. For me, I think it was Taekwondo and Tony Robbins, right? The two Taekwondo instructors and learning from Tony, that put me in a place where I'm like, yeah, of course I can do this, and this is comfortable and frankly, it's fun. So I don't know why it took me so long, but what I will say is it's a big deal, and at the same time, it's really not a big deal. Everybody's different. Really, everybody's the same. So if you're on that earlier side of thinking that working with a not for profit or working with somebody who's very different for you in some way that might even make you feel weird for a little while, it's a big deal.
It's really not a big deal. You will just kind of jump in and you will find out it's the same. It's all the same.
It's so cool, guys. I'm so glad we did this, and I would definitely want to do it again. Yeah, because someone close this out, if you would, please. Professional broadcaster.
No, I think we should leave it off. Adam just spoke beautifully. We're all different and we're all the same, and we have to keep reminding ourselves of that and putting ourselves in situations where we give ourselves the opportunity to experience that right? To see people the way they want, the way they see themselves, or to listen, to create that space of empathy. It's just so important. And I go back. You know what? Let's wrap it up with Seth. Godin. Faye, you and I met because of Seth. We did the alt MBA together. Then we were introduced to Adam and there is a human being who has realized that and who lives it every day, and he didn't have to, and he created this enormous community Where people just try to see each other as they are and connect and learn from each other, and it's a beautiful thing. And hopefully one day we're continuing that tradition in a way and hopefully we can keep growing and keep impacting more people and making that change.
People like us do things like this. You don't need permission from anybody else. If you feel weird, be weird, stay weird and do great things.
Perfect. Perfect.
