Jeff Rubin
Our podcast is hosted on Anchor
But you can listen in most places such as: Apple Podcast, Google Podcast, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Radio Republic.
My name is Jeff Rubin. I have been a teacher in the Shambhala Buddhist tradition for almost forty years, which has served as my North Star through some very difficult times. Unconditional Healing came about through my personal journey with a progressive degenerative illness, which first surfaced all the way back in 1999. Even after visiting dozens of health practitioners, and undergoing countless tests, I was unable to secure a firm diagnosis, never mind a cure.
In 2006, inspired by my own experiences of working with my illness, and by my study of various teachings on working with illness and pain, I developed a program entitled "Unconditional Healing: Embracing Illness and Adversity and Discovering One's True Self. The workshop presented bedrock principles of unconditional health and well-being and a unique way of working with painful situations that reduced one's suffering, fears, and feelings of helplessness immensely. In addition, the ability to meet with others in an open and frank forum was a game-changer for me, soothing my feelings of isolation. The workshop was well received, and I have since offered it at a variety of places around the country. I also learned that this approach could help people not only to cope, but even to thrive while undergoing immense difficulties.
In response to the workshops, and the need for ongoing support for people who were struggling, I established group meetings called Healing Circles. Healing Circles are support groups that meet
regularly in a safe confidential environment for those wishing to be acknowledged and heard without judgment. Unlike other support groups that form around a specific malady or illness, Healing Circles coalesce around a desire to not only acknowledge and support each other through tough times, but to use our difficulties to transform ourselves and find our deepest self. We ask - what can I learn from my pain and how can I use it to become gentler, wiser, and more resilient? Healing Circles are now operating in Manhattan and Los Angeles,
Please read more about the Healing Circles here.
While my journey has been difficult for me and for those that I love, I now see it as a blessing, bringing a sense of focus and urgency to my life, along with the opportunity to share what I have learned and experienced. It was with that motivation that I created this website to reach a broader audience looking for support, community and resources to help unlock their own storehouse of resiliency and confidence in the face of difficulties. I hope you will find a measure of solace, support and wisdom from the various offerings within, and from studying and practicing together as a community.
Machine Transcription provided by Happyscribe
Jeff Rubin.mp3 - powered by Happy Scribe
Hi everyone. It's Gustavo, the host of the Enabled Disabled podcast. It is my great pleasure to welcome Jeff Reuben to the show. I was on Jeff's podcast a few months ago called Unconditional Healing and we are really excited, excited to have him on the show. Jeff is a Buddhist teacher. He is the founder of Unconditional Healing where he helps people who are going through chronic illness, disability, some type of difficult life experience to come out of their experience or embrace their experience with more Grace, more empathy, and more perseverance. A quick description of myself. I am a middle aged Latin American male. I have dark Brown hair comb to the front. I am in my living room where you can see a little bit of some drapes and some blinds. And I am wearing a black Polo shirt. Jeff, welcome to the show. Can you give us a brief description of yourself and where you're at?
Sure. Absolutely. And thank you for the invitation. Salmon I'm really looking forward to our conversation. I'm a white male, age 72, in Balding, and I live in central New Jersey. I'm wearing Polo shirt that is pink right now. And I'm in my combination office shrine room and I have a 55 gallon fish tank behind me as well.
I can see the fish tank. It looks really nice. Yeah. Let's get started. Tell us a little bit about growing up. Did you grow up in New Jersey as well?
I did. I grew up in Newark, New Jersey, in a blue collar area of Newark, New Jersey. A home in Philharm Roth as well. And I went to the same high school as Phillip Roth. I grew up Jewish. Humorous school student went to humorous school after public school, and most of my folks worked. I had a really intelligent childhood. I really was into basketball. And our high school has turned out to be a number one team in the country, actually. We went 37 and one for junior, senior years. And five of the kids made their pros, actually. So I had no chance of playing on that team. But I did play on a team and we actually won a National Championship in my senior. It was filled with going to school and playing ball constantly. Had a lot of friends in the neighborhood. And you don't see that all that much anymore. People are a lot more isolated than we were. I walked to school. I walked back to school. I don't see all that much anymore. So I grew up in a really idyllic environment, and I'm very grateful for that. And that's not always the case.
Absolutely. There's a lot of sports you could have played. Was it that you were in a basketball city and that was the thing to do and your high school was already so good. Anyways, you were drawn to basketball.
There's a couple of things there. We also played and touch football constantly in the street and when the car would come, we would pull aside and then we would also go to a park and play. But parents would not let me play high school football. I really wouldn't love to try. I don't know if I was good enough, but I was pretty fast and shifty. Who knows? But that was out of the question. I ended up playing soccer for the high school. I was a goalie. I didn't like contact and I was a goalie for four years and that was fun. I got Kington head a couple of times. Who knows whether that's still residence or not? And then I just started playing ball and I was a big pro basketball fan. The Boston Celtics were my guys and not the Knicks, which was the New York team. And I just started playing. My dad put up my home in the driveway and I was out there renters constantly and then making the wine team and going out from there and played with a lot of lifelong friends who I still relay with on tonight.
That's incredible. That's a great story. I know this is not the easiest question to answer, but when you were playing and you were just loving the game, what do you think it helped you? How did it help you develop? How did it help you mature, grow, deal with people, or was it something that you just played because it was fun to play and you loved it and you were good at it?
Yeah. I don't think there was much thinking about what I was doing at that stage of my life. I was really kind of sheltered from those kind of questions much later in life right there. I didn't understand how I was privileged living in that environment. And I had no real cognizant of the outside world. My hospital was diverse, so I got to relate with people from different cities, backgrounds, and other countries and their races especially. And there was no real issues in my environment. So nothing really pressed upon me to question what was going on until I went to a little bit later. That's a really great question. And I have thought about that, how sheltered I was and how Aboriginal I was about the outside world and politics especially.
And what started did College start to change that?
College was a mind blowing situation for me and I never been on my own and I had never tried a couple of parties, but my parents owned the liquor store and there was liquor constantly in our house and I never was drawn to it. I didn't know about drugs at all. I was a shelter from that. And then I went to College. I went to Lehigh University in Pennsylvania, and that was kind of a brute awakening I had gotten by in high school. I wasn't a great studyer, but I got by on my own inherent smarts and I was able to do well in school without putting in a whole lot of effort. And then boom, that really changed in College and University had a very difficult, intense curriculum that I had chosen. I thought I was going to be a veterinarian, so I had a lot of Sciences and biology, and I retained my same study habits. I was going out and shooting pool and drinking beer for the first time on my own, and I almost got on probation. Graduation grade probation my freshman year. I didn't. And then late in my freshman year, I discovered a psychology class, and that really resonated with me and carrying me through the rest of my schooling because that really interested me.
I wanted to study that. But the other thing was I went to school in the early 70s, and when the country was going through massive people, culture and politics and beyond, no more, I thought it might be drafted. We had a draft back then, and there was a lottery system where they picked your birthday out of a hat and giving you a number. And my number, fortunately for me, came too high to me drafting, but I was also by sophomore year, I was getting heavily into drugs and the whole countercultural thing, letting my hair grow long, listening to constantly. And I was able to at least get involved in studying a little bit more, and I manage that part. But the world was changing and I had no idea what I was going to do after school. Not any clue. I was really groundless and protesting the war and all that countercultural stuff. I wasn't quite a hippie, but I was getting pretty close.
As I'm sure a lot of the students at that time were who had some passion and some awareness and were being gripped by all the things that were happening.
How did it Absolutely. And my sheltering lifestyle was torn away. I was very aware of what was going on, and my life was in danger if I was drafted. That's a wake up call, if there ever was one. But at that time I told you that I was interested in psychology. My major became experimental psychology, but I was really frustrated because the classes I was taking were solely revolving around the brain, the human brain, and studying that as if that was the essence of consciousness, where it originated. But I wanted to study the mind and being and what it means to be a human being, and we weren't covering any of that. And somebody started reading Far Eastern literature. I read everything I could on Buddhism and Hinduism and Sylvia only a mystic religion, human the Kamala and Jr, which is a mystic tradition. So I was really getting in Scottsdale, and I began to meditate on my own, and me and my roommate addressed my site professor about whether we could do a what do they call independent study. Let's go back then. If we can manufacture our own class and study meditation with him, meet a couple of times a week to meditate together and meditate on our own and then write their paper at the end about our experience.
And he went for it. And I laughed now because the thing about design, we did that and I began to meditate and that really set up the seat of my meeting with teacher when I got out of school.
So through this experience, you were drawn to it. You're looking for something different, but you said you had no idea what you wanted to do out of school. So how did you navigate those waters?
What brought you to what was your first career path or what did you do after I really I traveled around and took odd jobs so I knew what I wanted to do. I took jobs like I joined the post office and they were thrilled to get me a College grad. That was unusual. How to take the civil servicing exam. And I quit there. And within two months when I realized that I couldn't get a room, they were shuffling me all over on working early mornings and then late at night and come in the next morning and you are taking other people's route or not even other people's route Dropbox in the middle of the carrier will go in and replenish their mail back. I wouldn't mean the guy that would take the truck and drive out there and fill me on the collection box. I was told that I was never going to get a roof for at least five years and I end up quitting. I'm not doing this. I went down Washington DC area and stayed with a friend and substantive teaching for a while in Fairfax, Virginia. And then after a couple of years and I had a high school girlfriend who stayed and we stayed in touch with each other through College, even though meeting on the same schools and ended up coming home and getting married.
And that was about the time that I quit the opposite office. I got married and I wasn't even employed at the person my wife was and she put up with me for a while and then she actually found that in the newspaper that Bell lamps and was looking for a psychologist or people who are studying experimental psychology. And I went there and I interviewed. It was very intimidating, but I ended up getting a job as a contractor to start and end up working there and learned a lot about what was then called human factors is now called user experience or Usability. Or it has to do with making technology easy to use and easy to learn. And we conducted a lot of field tests and lab tests with end users and bringing them in to try prototypes and products early on. And we learn interface design as well and heuristic principles that can be applied to any interface. All that good stuff I learned there and ended up getting hired full time and then moved to at and T, where I learned how to teach public classes for at and T. It was all in one system.
There was all one belt system. They hadn't split yet, and I wouldn't go out and teach courses to the Baby Bells. They were called the individual companies in our state, and I would teach them human factors, work on documentation work, how to use it manual properly. And I learned a lot about all that stuff and ended up eventually going into business myself in a few years forward from that.
I had no idea. That's really interesting. How I'm assuming that the field test were you looking for a certain type of person to do those field tests? Did you want or was there like a mix of older population, younger people? Did anybody with any kind of disability factor into the user experience? What was the population like?
That? That's a great question. I would say absolutely not. We're not including disabled population at all. It was the typical end user. When I was working in the Belt system, of course, it would be Bell Symphony employee who were mostly white and male, and that would mean the people we were in recruit for tests. When I went on my own to do this work, of course, I was entering various industries. It wasn't just Mel telephone work, and we went and the typical end user that the product manager would tell us, pointing the product for. And more often than not, there were specialty industry professionals who would recruit for you. So we would outsource that, and then they would find the people that the product manager had identified. Now, at that point, the culture would involve me and we would look for more diverse population. But I can't say that we actually look for the same folks.
That's really interesting because it's one of those things that I think there's so much there to explore and figure out because it seems like there are these preconceived notions in your product design. Right. Like we want to target these end users who we think are our target, and we're automatically removing a bunch of people from that equation who could make the experience so much better. So we're just perpetuating this cycle of lack of inclusion.
And that's exactly what's happening with technology like face recognition, whereas they don't recognize black faces all that well because a lot of the developers are white and that's bias is being built into the technology. It's amazing how that happens, but it's real. Never mind disabled folks.
I know you transitioned into becoming a Buddhist teacher and working on this unconditional healing project. Have you thought about or did you think about helping companies design or consult with having different types of people in mind, like bringing in maybe some people with different disabilities to help design and improve a product?
The transition to our initial healing wasn't on my own choosing, so to speak. Yes, I became a but it's all backtrack. And I was saying that I mentioned my forest and settings interest, and I'm being meditating on my own. And then about two or three years after graduation, two years, 73, I met a teacher's teacher who had emigrated from there when the Chinese came in and completely destroyed their culture. And I was really drawn to this person because he was talking about experiences that I had read about but had experience of Buddha nature or an unconditional healthiness or unconditional wisdom which is inherent in human beings. And this guy actually manifested it. So I was really drawn to him. And that's how I got into the study of Buddhism per se, more formally with his guidance and a whole community form around him internationally. His name was and he's written a whole bunch of books. He's long deceased, but that was the beginning of my study. And then gradually, by becoming a teacher, I've become experienced enough to teach others meditation and what is torment as well. But it wasn't until I became ill that the whole unconditional healing program really form.
And we can talk about that if you like.
I would love to, but I have a couple of other questions.
Absolutely.
Sure. So you said he manifested, your teacher manifested these aspects of unconditional connectedness well being. Can you talk a little bit about what did that look like to you? What did that feel like? Was it something pretty as soon as you met him, what was that experience like to meet somebody?
I'll tell you what it was like meeting him. I was really intimidating. I first met him or didn't meet him. I first saw him at Public Talking, New York City. He was giving and then I went to a center that informed me a brownstone in New York City called Dormada. And when I went there, his students were saying, you have to sing an interview with him. I said, I have nothing to say. I'm a little smart. But I finally got up the nerve, and I went into a room where he was sitting, and there was a cushion in front of him at his feet. I sat down on the cushion and didn't see anything for five minutes. I was so intimidated and tongue tied. And finally he said, what's up? And that broke the ice. And I asked him a couple of questions, but the description of what it was like, it was like looking into a mirror because there was no eco there. There was just a reflection who you were. And that was what was so intimidating. It was like this person was able to see, and it was very exposing, like being naked in the room, even though you had full clothes on.
And it was like that experience. And as scared as I was, I was really drawn to that. Now this is an unusual person. I really have to learn more. So it was very visceral. It wasn't conceptual. It's like being blown away.
And let's differentiate that. I like the way you described it. It was like looking at a mirror. So it wasn't judgmental, it wasn't. There was no shame, there was no negative emotions. It was like he was reflecting back to you his full like just who he wasn't even.
That. It was very claustrophobic in a way, because you were seeing all your neurosis all of a sudden and all your neurotic tendencies were coming out and you were sort of tongue tied being in the presence of this person. Now, that shifted. Obviously, that shifted over time as you work together in winter programs, when this person had other interviews and interactions with them. But that first experience was like nothing I had ever experienced with any other person before.
Was there anything about the way he carried himself physically or his eyes?
It was so mindful. Every emotion was artful in a way. Would that be affectionate, if that's the word? It wasn't intentional. It was just who he was and the way he picked up a glass to drink and very mindful and put it down very mindful. Everything was like that. It was very skillful artful, if that's the way to describe it. It's hard to describe without being there. But his very presence was something that stood out to you without him saying just being who you are fully and 100%. And as an unrealized human being, I know how I sort of climbed my characteristics or pretend to be something with one person and then another person very much affected by the environment. He wasn't that way at all.
How did that shift over time as you got to know him more personally?
I was doing a lot in practice. And for example, in 79, he was conducting these three month program and major hotels oftentimes being renovated so the organization can get a good deal on being able to afford something like that. And of course, we paid to attend that. My wife and I and our 15 month old son went to a program, 1979. It was called the Vijan Seminary, and it was a series of ten day where all you did was meditate and sitting and walking meditation. And because we had a kid and there was childcare center when we all rotated martialers kids, one the other can go practice and then ten days of study, but it's normal. And he would give talks and his more senior students would conduct classes during the day and we would alternate that. And that went on for three months. And that was a life changing experience for me. I mentioned that it was for hippie. I wasn't completely off the reservation. I was still working. I still had a family and kids, but I was inclined to not really be into working livelihood in that aspect. And then I came back from there.
I was aged 30, and that was a breakthrough experience for me. I came back to at and T. I started wearing a tie, which I hadn't been doing, and I really buckled down and got serious about my livelihood and then take me a position with a small consulting firm where I learned even more about consulting and how to run a business and end up going into business for myself after that experience. And your question, how do you how did that change well being around him so often for those three months? I was seeing him every day, if not personally, then I was seeing him in a talk or a situation like that where you could ask questions. And really the inherent neurosis starts to wear out from practicing and being in that atmosphere for so long. You're becoming processed. Not intentionally, but you're just in that environment where your body and mind are starting to relax and not me. So uptight.
You would think that you but I think some people would think that going to a Buddhist retreat for three months like that, the reaction afterwards wouldn't be let me get serious and advance my career.
But do that's the kind of dissonance you're exactly right. The thing would be the opposite. But he was teaching that you can't escape. You're not going into a cave like the monks ten years ago. You live in America and your work is your practice. Absolutely. So there was no difference between the secular and the religious. And I loved that approach because I didn't have to change my entire life. I could get into my life deeper and further. And doing that, I become more awakened, more transformed without having to go into game or something. I was not.
I love that line. Your work is your prep.
Yeah. He was teaching that your mindfulness is 24/7. It just doesn't happen when you're sitting on the cushion. Then you have post meditation and you're aware when you're speaking to someone and when you're listening to someone. Your meditation isn't really a 24/7. It's constantly on. And when it's not on, then you notice the difference between when you're mindful and when you're not mindful. And that's an important distinction which you don't have to have shame about. If your neurosis is very evident, you have to have a shame about that. You're working basis. You're working with who you are always and not pretending it's something you're not.
It's really interesting that's deep. I'm assuming the more you practice, the more mindful of where you are and when you lose that mindfulness. But is that something that really only comes through practice because you have to get used to or process what being mindful actually means to you?
Yes. And meditation practice is a neutral practice. You're not trying to obtain some state of mind that's in the future or that's not there. You're noticing and allowing to arise whatever wants to arise and then you simply have a technique for noticing that and then coming back to the breath. So in shaman time meditation, which is roughly in translated peaceful aligning, you identify completely with the breath. You must be very careful how I described it, because you're not watching it and you're feeling it. You're feeling that breath from the inside out. You're becoming the breath wholly, fully. And then you notice you're distracted. So when you're distracting, you notice that you say thinking in your mind here, and you come back to the breath. That's the basic technique. And meditation is completely neutral because you're not trying to filter out anything like we normally do with our thought process. That's acceptable feeling not an angry person. So I am angry. I'm a peaceful guy. And then all of a sudden you blow up like crazy. You have the tantrum because you're repressing that. Well, in meditation, you're allowing whatever feelings when they arise, and you're allowing them to come up, but you're not indulging them.
You're not pushing them away, but you're not encouraging them either. You're right in the middle noticing, observing, and coming back to the technique.
So as somebody who meditates, I'm going to take away my knowledge for a second and just ask a question that I think could be interesting. How does it differ from some of these journaling practices where I'm going to spend 15 minutes journaling my thoughts, not judging them, just putting out what I'm feeling, what I'm going through on paper, and then I'm just going to leave them be, and maybe I'll read them later or I'm going to go for a swim and just let whatever thoughts come up in my head or in my mind come up in my mind, and they're just going to pass. What are some of the differences?
Absolutely. And I'm so glad you brought that up, because there's a million ways to practice the drama and not just on the cushion. And that could be your main practice, your former practice. But I recommend journaling to a lot of folks that I work with. Journaling is a way to get your thoughts out in front of you on paper and notice them without being attached to them. And the very important thing you mentioned there was you're not editing. You're not editing. You're just letting whatever wants to come out, come out. And that's very similar to formal meditation, where you're letting whatever rises wants to rise. So it's very similar. And swimming is a form of meditation. As long as you're mindful of your stroke hitting the water and then pushing the water back behind you and the legs kicking and all that good stuff, rather than thinking about what you're going to do for lunch, it becomes mindful practice when you're there fully. And if you're not there, it's something else. But you're still swimming.
Interesting. How do you encourage people who maybe don't have an interest in meditation or saying you hear. So meditation has become much more trendy or popular involved today than it was 30 years ago. So how do you separate some of that noise about you'll improve your focus, you'll improve your energy. You're going to feel like all of these claims that you can just Google and read about all these different reasons. How do you actually help people come to this practice in a way that is going to have a more long lasting impact on their lives?
That's a great question. I think the answer is I don't make any guarantees, just like my teacher made no guarantees. You're going to find out for yourself by practicing. I'm not here to offer any carrots in front of you. And there's no stick either. You can say in Zen there is a stick because that's part of the Shrine Zoom protocol is there, actually. But you're asking for that. You're asking to be woken up when you're falling asleep. That's not cruel and unusual, but I try to meet people where they are. And if they say a person, Jeff, who can't meditate, my mind is always going a mile a minute. I can't sit still, and I'll send them, can you sit still to watch a TV program? Yeah, but that's entertaining. Okay. How do you try five minutes? Can you do five minutes and go ahead and do that and try to sit for five minutes three or four times a week, and then let's meet again, and then we'll talk about the experience and what was going on in your mind. And I never noticed that. My mind has always been I really never noticed that because I never sat down and looked at my own mind.
And that's a way that I get started not making promises, maybe dipping a toe into the water and five minutes of quality mindfulness practice. It's better than an hour sitting there and distracting yourself for the full hour, as long as you're at least attempting to be fully there. That's meaning step.
Okay. I like that. I think it's interesting when you read a lot of these books, especially the Zen books, and they emphasize a lot of proper posture and how you have to how you should be sitting, how you should be placing your hands, your feet, your legs, being aware of everything. It's a little bit, I guess maybe the practice of it. My question is for you, was there a rigor to the physical form where maybe it turned off or did not include people who have disabilities or who can't sit in a certain way or some kind of condition? Have you seen that change over time? Has that become more accepting, or was it always accepting in your experience? And the books were just something else.
Let me think back to when I was first getting started. There was points out posture that were encouraged. And I'm telling you, it was so painful sitting for not long time. We sit maybe up to 45 minutes before we renew walking meditation and then sit down again and do it again and your body is screaming at you. You were allowed to shift your posture. It wasn't as strict as it is the approach that I grew up in. But we saw people in wheelchairs sitting and people who had difficulty sitting on a cushion or sitting in a chair or a wheelchair. And there was never an early issue with that. It wasn't that rigorous that you had to maintain it from the full time or it was our goal. And you need some base that you're aiming for. At least you can't just flop down it's in any way you want. We didn't have people with sticks, but in the early days, and there was what was called and the only thing would come around. And if you were asleep, I gently shake you. And if you were in a slump posture, they would gently, with your permission, try to correct your posture.
Now we're not talking about someone who can't get into that posture and tell you a normal mind situation. If you were disabled, then that was a whole different situation. But what was mind blowing people. When I first started teaching the Unconditional healing weekends, it really was Come as you Are because I was attracting people sick. We're undergoing cancer chemotherapy, and we're exhausted. And I allow them to lay down in the shrine Zoom. And that was never before seen that you were allowed to do that. And that really was a monumental way to attract people to the program because they would tell others, of course, you're feeling sick and you're feeling nauseous, and they have a room you can rest in during the program. And if you're on meds, they have a refrigerator where you can bring your meds and store them and sending that. If I was really from my own experience of being the same, I was really tuned into that, of course, and was letting people be as they were able to do and just showing up with the Realty just show up, and we don't care how you come come as you are, and that's great.
That's beautiful, Jeffrey. That's powerful. You have a great episode on one of your podcasts about the difference between pain and suffering that I want to dive into a little bit because I think it's really important for people to who are listening to this to gain a deeper appreciation of that difference and how what you teach and what you help people with is so beneficial with that. Can you tell us a little bit about how you define those two things and why they're different?
Sure. And I'm glad you asked, because that's an essential principle of the whole program, and we're all trying to achieve understanding that. So I talk about two kinds of suffering. And the first one I call pain and pain. I'm differentiating from the second as being inherent and unavoidable in human beings. We're all going to suffer pain. And I'm not just talking about physical pain. I'm talking about emotional pain, mental anguish, distrawness, losing a loved one. That's going to happen. We're all going to eventually get sick. Even if some of us are lucky enough not to get sick for a long time, others are going to get sick when they're disabled. As you were born into a situation where you're inherently disabled from the get go. So that's painful. It's painful emotionally, living in that atmosphere and feeling stigmatized and isolated. That's painful. That's going to happen. But how you relate to it, that's where the suffering comes in. Is it a calamity? Is it like who is me or why me? And that attitude makes things worse? It's pain on pain. So suffering is how we relate mentally, emotionally, spiritual to the pain that we're experiencing.
And I'm going to show him we work a lot on through mindfulness darkness, noticing we're adding to the situation that doesn't have to be there. However, our negative talk, especially how we talk to ourselves in our minds here when we say to ourselves, you're worthless, you're a piece of shit. You should kill yourself in some extreme cases. And we're talking about that as those are just thoughts. They're just thoughts and they're just the emotions. They are workable. You can't change the first one, you got sick, okay, that's real. Or you're disabled. That's real. But how you work with it, that's what we're going to work on together.
So, for example, I've had some nagging physical injuries on my journey towards getting stronger and fitter again. And they come and go every few months. And it's very easy to get frustrated, to get down on myself, to say, look, am I ever going to get to a point where there's not something, am I ever going to be able to just feel healthy and strong or where something's not there all the time? It's very easy to become emotionally drained and to become for the frustration levels to Mount up and up because of those things. And that's what you're talking about is rather than just working through, okay, there's a hip strain here. Let's deal with that. Let's work through it. Let's feel that. Don't pile more crap on top of that experience through all of those manifestations of our self talk.
Yeah, a little shift occurs. And through mindfulness practice, you can notice the little thoughts before they become a maelstrom and you're basically out of control. You're going to lose it. You're going to break down at that point. We've all been there, but the duration of that freak out can be shorter and shorter through mindfulness practice, through noticing. Wait, all of a sudden my thoughts have shifted here. What the hell is going on? 1 minute I was fine, and then someone says something to me and filing out of control and that's all I'm me, they shouldn't have said what they said. Well, call me Matt, but how I relate to it is totally on me. It's their problem.
I don't want to overly romanticize. I think Buddhism the way I did when I was younger. It's not like it's giving super powers or anything close to that. But at the same time, having that mindfulness in those experiences of pain helps you navigate. That where you can still, for example, maybe you can. It depends on the situation. But at the very least, it's going to help you through those situations more quickly. And if you are able to let's say I have to have somebody who has chronic pain. If I learn how to be more mindful, I may be able to say, work for a couple of hours today. Because of that mindfulness practice, I may be able to get through or focus better or get through that chemo without so much of the negative emotional consequence.
Absolutely. Minors are coming off. We're not being romantic here. Life is hard. Life is very hard. And we're admitting that. But we're trying not to make it worse. My NEA bias is sort of a cultural bias, if you will. The culture that is reinforced constantly doesn't look on illness as a neutral thing. It's a personal fail or a disability. Oh, you did something at your Karma and that nonsense. And we're trying not to adopt the cultural biases in your own mind. And only through mindfulness, I found can we do that by noticing that our thought process, that thoughts, our thoughts are not real. And when you're determined by your thoughts, you're visiting thought for reality. Oh, I'm seeing this. When you're not actually seeing this, you're just thinking about it. And that's why the meditation practice is really not a mental practice. It's in the monument practice, you're coming back to the body, and the body is very wise. It always knows what's going on in the moment, and then the thought comes second. The body senses immediately what's going on. And you notice that when someone says something to you that shocks you, you really like, freeze.
And then maybe then you'll be able to come up with some rational things to say. But you can't hide that initial body rationist. Holy shit. I can't believe they said that. And that's an example. So when the meditation practice, we're trying to come back to the body as a home base and live there as much as we can instead of in our head. When we all live, we all spend much too much time in our head.
Yes, we do. There's a lot that we can talk about there. I hope we can bring you back for some more episodes because it's really enlightening. But the question that I have for you, I just wanted to touch on that word unconditional.
Right.
So that the meditation is that letting go of all of the cultural biases, all of the family stuff, the societal stuff, the personal stuff, it's stripping those layers away over time. This is not something that happens in a month or three months. It's a process that it's a practice. You're practicing to do that and to see those things for what they are.
And you're practicing having no intention to change. That's the beauty of it. And that is what we're taught. We're always taught to improve and change and grow. And with meditation, you're sitting down and you're saying, I don't know who I am. Let's see, let's see what arises and let's see what's there. And these end folks call it don't know, mind, like you don't know who you are. And you come to that with Benin's mind. That's another phrase from Zen being as mine means even if you're a 40 year plus student like myself, every time you see it, it's the first time. It's fresh like Bake bread. It's fresh out of the oven. You're coming to that experience and it is fresh. Every moment is new. You've never lived this before. And we get caught up in our thought and we just place a bias on what's going to happen and I'm screwed and all that. It's always a fresh start. And that's when my teacher was teaching. Always a fresh start. And take that with every breath. Easy to say, hard to do, understand.
Yes, it is. I really appreciate the time. Really interesting conversation. Can you please tell us a little bit more and give us specifics? How can people connect with you? What are the ways that they can learn from you? Do you have any classes, any seminars, any one on one sessions? How can we connect?
Sure. The best way is taking a look@unconditionalhealing.org all one very long word unconditionalhealing.org. That's their website. And now you'll find information. There is unconditionally healing altogether. And the podcast several menu item there. You can see all the podcasts or follow Initial Healing with Jeffreyman on any major podcast platforms. Now I have put on hiatus after 39 episodes because I wanted to take a break from my own health. It was becoming a lot of work and I wanted to do some writing. I want to work more with individual students. I want to spend more time with family and friends. Now that's finally listening. And so the podcast is on there. But I offer twice a month Healing Circles, and that will be on the website as well. And the healing circles are free. And then there are a chance for people to come together. A community has formed around this work to come and meditate together. And then I either give a talk or we do an exercise like contemplation together. And then people share where they are in a confidential and Frank environment where people often say things they've never said before because they're too intimidated in the outside world.
So this is where forming a container. We know it's virtual. We're forming a container that people can say, I'm fucking angry and I want to give up and we talk about that. And you can say things like that in that kind of environment rather than just pushing aside your anger, pushing aside your fear, and saying something you think people want to hear. And I found that in the outside world when I first became ill, I didn't want to be around others who were not ill. I was totally stigmatized and I felt isolated. And this is a way for people of undergoing adversity as you send in the opening of all kinds illness, disability, loss of lung, loss of livelihood, whatever you can think of that turns your world outside. You can show up and share with others who are willing to listen and witness when you have to say without judgment, without analysis. And then I do personal consultations. The healing circle is free. I do charge for the personal consultations, which are one on one Zoom saying. I describe on the website exactly when it being offered.
Perfect. Have I lost question jokes? I hope people I really encourage people to connect with you and reach out. And these healing circles sound like something I'm going to do. Have I missed anything in this conversation that you feel is important to mention or talk about?
Yes. One thing I would add is that we possess when I'm realizing unconditional health is not a thing. That's the interesting thing and why it's so elusive. It doesn't care about circumstances. It's inherent in human beings that it's not even born and can't die and say, I know I'm being inherently worthy and money and mine are synchronized and you're grounded into the Earth and that we can always access that, accept that and access it. But it only can be reached when we stop struggling. That's the ironic part. When you stop trying to be better or change your situation, then unconditional health rises in your being and becomes very obvious. But it's always there. It's always accessible. And that's why I called the program unconditional Healing, because it's very similar to the notion of bone in nature or Christ consciousness that they are talking about in the other conditions. It's always there and it's always accessible to human beings. But we're so caught up in our thoughts, then we don't notice it being there. Even if I've had people who have spunken you on their deathbed, who are unconditionally healthy, even though they were dying of cancer because they said I'm happy, I have no regrets, and I'm perfectly content to die right now.
And that's amazing. See my mind blowing when they're tuning into conditional health, even though their body is wasting powerful.
And that's not tied to I guess you can say the religions or the spiritual practices of the world may be pointing to that or may not be pointing to that.
But this is part of the experience that the Buddhism practice that you've learned is pointing to is showing through there but it's not tied to Buddhism at all. It's just something that is in human consciousness. We live in the relative world where you and I are separate and we're talking to each other but we're in the absolute world. We're perfectly connected. We're interpending with each other and that's the kind of energy, if you will, to put it in more accessible language because it's really hard to explain when the experiences you can only point to it because it's not a thing and a thing isn't permanent and this is permanent. It's always there.
In a way, I think there's the Buddhist imagery I got it through Zen where it's the difference between pointing at the reflection of the moon in the water Versus the actual moon up in the sky.
You got it or trying to explain the experience in words is never the experience powerful and the mindfulness practice is teaching you or revealing to you how to access that. Yeah, in the way it is because it's neutral and it's not trying to change anything. It's come as you are and through relaxation you notice this other state of mind which is completely obscuring normally because our minds are freaking busy and one thought after the other, thought after the other. But that's where you have to start where you are. My mind is not after 45 years of practicing, my mind isn't like a placid lateness currents have all kinds going on and I just relax with it though my attitude toward it has completely shifted. It's not a bad thing. It just is.
That's fantastic. Let's just leave that beautiful moment the way it is and thank you so much, Jeff. I really look forward to having you back. We have a lot more things to talk about and learn from you and thank you so much for your time.
Thank you for the invitation, as I said and I really love speaking with you and conversing with you and learning from you as well some real inspiration with how you handle your life.
I really appreciate that. Thank you. You.