Viola Dwyer: YouTuber behind The Ginchiest
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Viola Dwyer was born with Spinal Muscular Atrophy (SMA), a neuromuscular disease that causes her to use a wheelchair. She earned a BA from the Johns Hopkins University and later an MBA from Duke University. She worked in Human Resources during and after business school until in 2015 she decided to strike out on her own as a consultant. In 2020, she and her husband started a YouTube channel called, The Ginchiest, where they talk about disability experiences and what these experiences teach people about being human.
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S01E07 Viola Dwyer.mp3 - powered by Happy Scribe
Welcome to the Enabled Disabled podcast. I'm your host, Gustavo Serafini. I was born with a rare physical disability called PFG. My journey has been about self acceptance, persistence and adaptation. On the show, we'll explore how people experience disability, how the stories we tell ourselves can both enable and disable our vulnerability is the foundation for strength and why people with disabilities can contribute more than we imagined. I hope that leaders, companies, clinicians, families and friends will better understand our capacity to contribute to the world and help enable us to improve it.
Viola Dwyer is a fellow graduate of Seth Godin, Zoll Temba, a content creator, educator and consultant. She's gone to some of the best schools in the country, worked in human resources for a national bank, and is currently the cocreator of a terrific YouTube channel called The Kinkiest. Viola and her husband, Dan, are on a mission to change the way people perceive disability. Their approach is clever, funny and unafraid of exploring the depths of the disability experience.
After the show, if you want to learn more about Viola. Please come join our Facebook group at Enable Disabled, look forward to seeing you there.
I know most people start with origin stories, I don't quite want to start there. OK, I love to start talking about your YouTube channel, the kinkiest kind of dove in a little bit into what you're doing there, why you started it and what you're focusing on.
Yes, so this is a love project, really, with my husband, my husband, Dan, and we I first hand the idea of doing a YouTube channel in general seven years ago now, probably eight years ago, because we're in twenty, twenty one. And I was very hesitant for all those years to actually make it happen. But I think that after so much of seeing. One of the experiences of people with disabilities is like and not really seeing other people talk about it or believe it was so glaringly apparent that these stories and our voices to be heard.
And so I think that that has been the main impetus for starting the conscious. And why we exist is to really send this message that disability is a part of the human experience and it's nothing to be afraid of and it's nothing to be ashamed of. And so join us. We will bring people into our lives so that they can see this for themselves and hopefully have this mind shift happen.
So my my first question, I know the answer, but I think it's important for our audience to know is why did you name it? Because that is a really cool and interesting name, because I give them credit for that one, because Dan has a really interesting slang words and phrases and just words that are and often used say words like copasetic. And I'm like, OK, good, you're a good egg. He loves best, but he used to call me the Grinch is.
And he still does that, of course, because, you know, we're in love with that slang term. It comes from the 1950s, Gustavo, we think it started in this one song between Connie Stevens and Burns, who are singing and and says, baby, that just means the coolest, the greatest. And we say, keep it, Ginji, which means you keep trying to be your best self. But that that is something we encourage people to do.
And they know we believe in the human potential of being conscious.
That's awesome. So did you just came and got this idea, just remember this movie that you both watched?
No, it was more like I said, what if we called it because we were going to go with Danny, the Danny and V Show? I mean, it's like Maury doesn't really Kutcher Kutcher your either. But when I asked him was you call me again. He is. What if we called it the kiss and we talked about it and we thought about what that might look like and it just kind of clicked. So we went from there was a joint effort for actually using it as our YouTube channel.
And that's awesome. And. I've seen a bunch of the videos, I think you're both doing a fantastic job and I think it just keeps getting better. I love how. Thank you. Hey, you you get product reviews. So there's a product that may assist in your life in some way. And you give like a very honest review of, hey, know, this works for these solutions, but I don't really like this about it. Right.
So there was which which I think is really helpful. And I don't see a lot of that on maybe none of that on YouTube. I haven't seen it. But you're also very open about discussing important topics around disability, important topics around your life. That takes a lot of courage. So did you. I think you said that the you've had the idea for a while by kind of going through sex ceremonies are often vague, was another inspirational point for launching it.
Absolutely. I think that just the whole experience of the old and the forces, you if you're open to it, to go very deep and whatever project or work that you have and I was actually not going to choose the Ganges is the main focus, I thought, because at the time I had also just launched the Business English Virtual Company and I like teaching company. And I thought, oh, I'll just focus on that and trying to build up that business.
But then I realized pretty quickly after starting the ventures that I don't even think I want to do other other work anymore. I mean, I still do it as a part time job now. But I, I just love this so much more. And we the people that I met through the old MBA and of course, as you know, like the cohort times time together, it was so transformational and it helped me really understand, OK, who is this going to be for?
How are we going that we're not how we're going to implement, but who is it for? You know, what's right. So it's that's really the tough work that a lot of women creators or entrepreneurs don't take the time to do beforehand. But it's really vital.
Absolutely. One of the things that I was amazed at with the article was how safe the space was that they created where we could be vulnerable with essentially strangers that we were just meeting that week and opened up on some of our biggest fears, some of our our deepest vulnerabilities, and just share them and actually learn that it was. If you do it right, it's a source of strength or weakness.
Yeah, I mean, I was really impressed with one prompt in particular that they had to do with empathy. And and I think that links to your point about being vulnerable, because it's it really stretches those four or flexes those empathy muscles and and allows people to think from a different perspective. And that's I mean, I'm so passionate about that. And if I have to say my experiences, first of all, the disability has taught me to be OK with my believability.
And so that's something I struggle with as much as, let's say, another person may. But. Just. Being with everyone and through that experience and exercising still those empathy muscles. It really is a very special space and time. They were.
What is is there Is there an episode or two of the countries that your most? You're most proud that you put out there?
Well, that's a good question. I think there were some really good news, though, and I think that one one episode that was recent or was the words that make us cringe, I really is, as I mentioned, like I'm I hope people, at least right now with English, the English language will. So words mean a lot to me. And I really am fascinated by language. So I think that the way in which we or the words in which we use to refer to one another and communicate with one another are so important.
And so I was worried. I mean, I am so worried about what the reception might be of these opinions bands, in my opinion, about these words. But I'm also proud of putting it out there, because I think one thing that we made pretty clear is that these are these are these are our experiences and that people will have variations of that. We don't represent all this world and experience. So that was one and then I think the other one was really for Dan because we worked so hard.
This episode was Ben's disability story, and it took a long time for him to sit down and finally film it because it's a very sensitive topic for him. He acquired disability and it was born with it like I was. And so it was a traumatic event. And we wanted to really honor his feelings towards that and be respectful in how we shared it with world.
And I think I mean, I love that episode. It was really emotional for me and I I told you this before, but I think it bears repeating. Dan's story and the way the way you told that the sensitivity, the rock there was like a rawness to it and it made me really appreciating not only not only what he's been through, but that. He has a speech impediment now since the accident, and that is his act of speaking, his act of communicating to the world is.
Is is it shows his courage and shows his determination, shows his desire to connect and his fighting spirit in such a beautiful way that I just completely shifted my perspective.
Yeah, it's really hard, I think, for. For people who do have a type of speech impairment to it, because they not only do they at times need other people to show patience, but they themselves have to be extremely patient with other people. And I've seen that with Dan. I mean, he will repeat himself over and over again. And I just think to myself, like a show, like it's it's just so much, but it just shows you how.
No, we do have this reserve. We have this will of strength. I mean, some people are able to tap to tap into it very easily. And I think that is one of those people. And so I give them a lot of good ideas because it's you know, it's such a fundamental desire to be understood. And when that's compromised in some way, A, it's a it's an incredibly unique challenge.
So I was I was born with my disability, and you were to have. How was your experience, you know, this adaptation process for you growing up with everything?
Yeah, I haven't we haven't done this for the story. We're planning on doing it. We're trying to keep it even here. So the deal with it. But I will be saying I mean, I do believe that because I've been thinking about this. Is it my in terms of how I view disabilities throughout the the word that comes to mind often is incredulity, because at my mom is like she's your perfect. One of her favorite phrases is I can't believe it.
And, you know, to think of other times, I wouldn't say every day, of course. But there are times when I have like a moment of shock. I think to myself, I can't believe this is my life. Like, well, this is it. This is my reality. And it's not I'm not evaluating this. I'm just kind of in this weird state of like, whoa, this is like I have to remind myself sometimes.
And it's really weird because I think. When I was younger, I wasn't fully aware that I was quite different in society, for the most part, for me is different. And so it took me having that exposure to others who thought people who received me in that way for me to start getting that message that no, no, you are different. And then I worked so hard to try to simulate and not do different. And so I think that that's why sometimes I have these moments of shock.
I have to say, though, since doing this work and talking more openly about that, I haven't had a woman in a level that is going to do the reality of the age of 40.
That's and there's a lot to say there. So when when did you start to I know you mentioned before that one of your things was elementary school. Right. Was one of the first times that you had seen other children with different kinds of disabilities, correct?
Oh, yeah. I mean, but I will say that my I have two older sisters and one of them had the same disease. And so she was five years older than me. She she passed away and in twenty nineteen and you know, she was my main source of understanding that others. Of course there are other people like my sister, but beside her I you know. I know. I mean, everyone else in my family didn't have a disability and.
Well, there was one other person, actually, there was another person that a cousin, but we don't really know if I had met her when I was very, very yes. When I went to and she had a developmental disability. But when I went to elementary school, I was always around other children with physical and developmental disabilities. And so it was it was a big eye opener in that regard because there was so much diversity of disability there.
What did that what did that experience? Teach your people to remember what were the impressions that still that you still hold on to?
Oh, yeah. So we're we're very positive and so not and so the good and then I, I made friends who I am still friends with to this day. And I also had teachers and administrators who who really instilled in me to. To that, we can strive toward whatever goals we have a life, and they were incredibly supportive, incredibly kind to us and compassionate. I would say they were probably my favorite teachers. Out of all the teachers that I had through secondary schooling, the bad was that I saw a lot of neglect.
And ignorance in the sense that some kids who were from families who would be either in their families or institutions, I don't really know what their personal situations were, but they clearly didn't seem like they were well cared for. They smelled of urine. Their hair wasn't grown. Their clothing was just as clean as some other kids. I also saw some aides who were saying it like rather abusive when it came to helping in the bathroom and yelling. And I don't know if I saw him, but but definitely this sense of like your burden and you're a sense type attitude and certainly made me not want to go to the bathroom during the day.
And so I told that school really early to because I didn't want the assistance and I still do to to use the restroom, but I never engaged with them voluntarily. Whether sometimes they would they would make you say you have to go. But yeah, those were really two dichotomies. There is, yeah. On one hand you're saying wonderful people and so supportive. And then it was a hard thing to to witness.
That is a hard thing I can imagine how did you how did you so what was your besides trying not to go to the bathroom during the day, which is like what was your what was your what was your adaptation process? And how did you find out? What stories were you telling yourself as a kid and how are you getting getting past that or not even getting past just coping?
Well, it's interesting. One one thing one story that my my best friend at the time was Andrew, and she's a friend I'm still friends with we would tell ourselves was that when we grow up, we're going to have our own apartments and our own careers and we won't have our disabilities anymore. And we were convinced of this. And we would plan and we would dream and we would come up with all these different things that we would do. And all together, of course, because we were so, so happy to be together.
And she and I talk about this and we're like, well, can you believe it? It was a coping mechanism for us. It was a way for us to think, OK, we can make it through this. And if we make it through this, and all will be better in the future. And anything it didn't get better because of the big three, the big major part of it didn't go away for the. But I mean, we still have a friendship, and that's huge.
Absolutely. So for me, one of my coping mechanisms was, I mean, I only saw people like me when I went to the doctor, when I went to the Shriners Children's Hospital where I was. And so for me, it was easier to say. I'm here, but as soon as I leave and I get I'm taking care of whatever it is that we're doing today, I can go back to, quote unquote normal, normal life, right where my friends kind of accept me for who I am.
And disability doesn't really come up. I just I'm just trying to fit in and trying to. Make people like me and just kind of live where where it's ignored, where just this thing that sits in the background and only rears its head.
Yeah, yeah. And I relate to that. That resonates with me, because when I believe that school, the elementary school, I went to what they call a mainstream school and it sounds like you were always in mainstream schools where the other kids didn't have disabilities. And so. It it's it's interesting because I think I was also fortunate in that my my older sister eventually went to the same school, the mainstream school, and there was a neighborhood friend who had the same disease as me who also went there.
I wasn't the only one. And that did make it easier. But I do think that there's this feeling of of every teenager, I think for the most part, has this want of fitting in or being accepted, but it's really pronounced for someone with a disability. And so I did do a lot of those things of trying to downplay my disability, and that would look like not talking about it. I could talk about my illness and they're going to explain why I couldn't go back to school for three weeks when I fell out of my wheelchair.
You know, I came back to notes that were now today we would call that bullying. But it was like just real language for the kids, just saying really mean things about me now, you know, going to school for three weeks because I was ill, but I didn't take the time to or I wasn't. I was a kid, too, you know, and I and that's a lot to ask of a kid to educate other kids. So I would imagine and correct me if I'm wrong, because I would love to hear your experience on this, too, that, you know, you you you didn't do that.
I mean, it was way easier to just hide it under the rug and not talk about it and try to fit in as best as you possibly can.
I think I think my. My is. We have the conversation in the. So it was like, OK, let's get this out of the way. I was born this way and give me a chance kind of thing and I'll show you that I could be one of the cool kids, right. I can play basketball with you or handball or whatever. Or, you know, I would have a group of friends that we would just second and third grade.
Just the hold on a second. Sure. OK, sorry about the phone call, I should have disconnected the phone. The. We got to talk out of the way with and then they either accepted me or they didn't. So if they did, then we became friends and we didn't talk about it again, or it was like, hey, let's make say we were playing handball. So I couldn't obviously I have my mobility was a lot more constrained than other kids.
So that's, I guess, kids two bounces on the right. So it was it was like they try to accommodate in a way that made me feel included. That also made it like I was I was part of the group or we played we played just imagination games or I remember one time and the teachers had so much to do with that because like second grade, third grade, I had some amazing teachers who went the extra and assistant teachers who went that extra step to make me feel included and to be like part of the group.
So, you know, we would do plays and I would be part of the plays and we would do you know, we'd play tag. And I still remember to this day, like I had already gotten to court. And basically you're running from one side to the other. And if you if you grab that person's hand and run with them to the other side, they're safe. And there was this girl who grabbed my hand and I was like, no, we're not going to make it.
And she's like, yes, you are. We're told you're going to make it. Let's go. And she's just, like, dragging me to the other side. So good, good kids, good kids that, like, able to kind of open their minds. It was great, the people that didn't accept it. And we just kind of left each other alone.
And when they made that accommodation for you, you're friends with the kids gets balances. Was it oh. Did you feel included when they did that? I mean, how did you feel about it?
I felt like I felt like I'm going to try to, you know, get it on one bounce as much as I can. But if I get two bounces, then then so be it. I still get to compete. And that puts us a little bit more on an equal ground. So, you know, as I got older and as I got better at certain things, that that kind of went away. But but growing up, I think it was an important it was an important combination.
It didn't make me feel bad. It made me feel like. Yeah, like I can they're giving me a chance to play with them. Yeah. Makes sense. So how is. It's. I think that as as you progressed through right through your education. Were there were there any, like, key points in time where you felt. Better and better is not the word I'm looking for, but I've felt like I've turned a corner on how I see myself or I'm feeling like, you know, like when you were you and your friend are saying, we're going to have our own careers, we're going to have our own apartments.
Right. I did that with college, something that was more that I started to look like more of a reality. Were there key moments in time where you felt like it was going to happen?
Yes, absolutely. Because I have to say that when I did make that shift to the quote unquote, mainstream school, it was fine for the first couple of years. But in adolescence, it for everyone. I was really depressed and I just wasn't a happy kid. So going to college and I specifically went away for college, I realized that state was a transformative time for me, thankfully, because I was a kid. And thinking back on that experience, I really was at a really dark place.
But it was it was wonderful for me to have that greater autonomy, greater independence. I was I was learning things that I chose. I chose my classrooms. I loved most of my teachers, my professors and I met wonderful people. I was really trying to be thoughtful. In the groups that I joined. I joined a community service group, OK? And I loved it. And I met one of my very, very good friends to today still there.
And I was able to go to a lot of friends apartments. I had my own dorm, which I thought of as an apartment. It was very freeing. It was a really freeing time. And yeah, I think that it represented where I think that college experience represents for a lot of young adults, it's a time to explore, you know, emotionally, physically. And yeah, I just I'm very grateful for that time.
I think the. The diversity of the student body in college was something that took me by surprise. I was meeting people from all over the world that I had never, never had that experience and just getting different people's perspectives. And, you know, it was college for me, the same thing it was. I went out of state and it was empowering and challenging and. You had to do with. Chicago weather coming from Los Angeles. It's been tough.
It was, it was, but it was it was worth it. But I think the the coming together of the the group of friends that I'm still friends with, I'm still pretty close contact with them from college to this day was we just became more close knit because of that. Those shared experiences and those shared challenges. But, you know, teenage years, I think, are just generally tough for most people, unless you're one of the cool kids.
It's it's just difficult for her for just about everyone.
It's amazing, though. Sometimes I look at the movies and I have to think, did we ever really play school like real ever? I really wonder that sometimes, but I guess some do. The good news is that somebody somewhere was.
Exactly. And so when did you get when did you get your first? Even my first part time job. When did you do that?
Yeah. So it's a really neat story I, I had seen. So I went to Johns Hopkins as an undergrad and I had seen a whole bunch of posters, it said, and Prague and Prague, this purpose and Prague is a nonprofit public interest research group. And they have it all in every state. Maybe not, but they definitely had one impact. And so I was like, OK, I'm going to apply for this one, make some extra money like a lot of other people do in their summer vacations.
And with the summer vacation, right after my freshman year of college and I went to the downtown office and I had applied, I don't remember how I applied, but I did. And I was going for the interview and I knew there it was for canvasing, which meant that I would have to go to different people's homes and basically ask for money. And and I thought, well, maybe I can do it. I mean, if it was like a certain neighborhood and like, I don't know.
But honestly, I really couldn't because most homes are not accessible, especially in the Philadelphia area. So when I go to this place and I think I think that there is like a phone bank, maybe I could work. Well, when I'm in the interview, the hiring manager says you're going to have to be able to go into people's homes. How are you going to do that? And I say, well, I think it might be an issue.
Other homes are inaccessible. It's like, well, I'm sorry, but this is the job. All the best to you. And I thought, yeah, this is it. I'm not going to get this job. And I was waiting. I left the building and I waited. And there was this girl that I have spoken to very casually who was working at I think of the same organization, definitely the same organization. But I didn't really know what department.
And she was and she was on the phone prank. She's like, What were you here for? And I said, I was I was going for the canvasing board. And she said, well, why don't you just, you know, be a phone rep? I'm on the phones and I'm like, well, I don't know if they would consider me for that. So she went to the hiring manager and she said, why aren't you considering for phones?
She could totally do the phones. And I was like floored by her openness, her willing willingness to advocate for me. Like I was young. I didn't know what the heck was a first interview really ever that I was seriously being considered for. I did like informational interviews before this, but nothing like a real interview. I got the job because of her name was Leslie. Thank you. So, you know, it's just shows how important we can we can how important it is to to think of others and be.
We can be an advocate at any moment in our day and then a variety of ways. And she was one she she helped me have like a real experience that summer exposure to my first job. So, yeah, that's amazing.
That's an amazing story. I didn't I didn't even know that. Yeah. Yeah, that's. It. To me, the day the. The key point there is. What you said, you can always be an advocate for somebody, but I think it's the ability to what people can bring to the table, right? Not not not in spite of just we all have things that we're good at, have things that we excel at if we're given the opportunity to show it.
And she was she sorry. Hey, you can totally do this job, but why aren't we here? Why aren't they hiring you for this? That's right. Yes, because that's what. That's what makes sense. That's where you that's where you fit in, where you can contribute.
Yeah, I tell you why it's so frustrating, because many years later, when I became manager manager, I sold this. Still, I saw this attitude of like, oh, no, this peg doesn't fit in that hole. So we can extend this offer to that person or that we can even interview this person. And it's very narrow thinking. And I and I remember talking with other age or hiring managers about reconsidering all of the job descriptions through the lens of adaptability.
Can we think of this job being done and being a little bit more like other alternatives for this job to get done like this, to be in this way? And there was a lot of resistance, sadly, to report. There was a lot of resistance in doing that type of work. They never got done, at least when I was promoting it. And so but yeah, I mean, one person that one day made a difference. And that's what mattered in that moment for the.
But I wish it were it happened more often and I wish the people broadened their views about what can be done. And yeah. So.
It's it's a shame that I see this in. I see this in my work, too. I'd love to. I want to talk about your experience as an HIV. That's super, super juicy topic there, but. People tend not all not all people, obviously, but people tend to stop. They see a problem and they stop. And it's like, OK, there's a problem here, but look somewhere else or let's let's figure out how to solve it.
Just it's a problem. You know, it's time, it's money, whatever, whatever goes on in their brain, they don't take anything that frustrates the heck out of me. And that's something that, as I I my one theory that I have is that. People with disabilities, we can't stop the problem, we have to figure out how to make it work. We have to figure out how to adapt. We have to figure out ways around it or through it for shifting perspectives.
Whatever it is, we don't stop with the problem. And I think that's one of our greatest skill sets that. It's it's a tough going, soft skill, but it's a really, really, really important one that I wish more companies would realize.
No need to really.
Yes. So what's so H.R. manager, how long did you do it for? It wasn't for very long, so after business school, I joined the bank and I was doing after work, but I was in my last year there and it was no longer four years, but I was responsible for a lot of hiring in the last year. That wasn't my I wasn't like a talent manager, but as a manager of operationalization operations had to grow a lot.
And then I was also on another project that had to do with there prior still of the same company for job descriptions. And that's the instance that I was talking about earlier. But I mean. I think our careers, especially our just here to fill Iraq. They just want to hurry up and move on to the next person or the next job. And I mean, not all recruiters are like this, but. They're they're so overworked, I would say, and overwhelmed, and I'm sure that Kobe is making it easier, but it's.
When and I think that there's this impression that to consider the diversity initiatives of a company through the recruiting lens, that would work. And so there was hesitation because. I think a lot of companies in theory have good intentions, they want to have they want to move the needle, hiring more people in the stores, they want to move the needle and hiring more African-Americans and other people of minority groups. But it's it's like they're also tremendously risk averse and they think some of them work as risk delving into the wattages potential, and I just think you're overanalyzing or making something Akin can do.
A win win, as we say, in the business world, and overcomplicating making more difficult democratic. So now I wish I had happier stories. I guess we don't know what.
So what did your hiring process look like at this? Were where you're were you like one of those students where, you know, your grades were so good and your teacher recommendations were so good and you were too good to be ignored? Of course, they were going to hire me. Like, what did that look like?
I think I think my schooling lot because they recruited specifically from the school business center. And so and they were also looking to check out some diversity boxes. But I think it was clear to me at least, that my or my degree background held a lot of weight. And and it wasn't very difficult to get. It I mean, they they found me in this book and invited me to a series of interviews and I did those interviews. Now I will say that after I left that company and I took a break, I resigned from that company and went to try different things and also step back from the corporate world.
And when I tried to get back in, I was shocked by the reception that I and I knew that things were changing, recruiting wise for a number of years. But I didn't think that discrimination would play a role in my experience. But it was clear to me that it did in some instances where I was in the final. And in a job that I thought I was a shoo in for, and I know I did some investigation work on LinkedIn and they realized that they went for a person who was younger and less experienced.
And and I also wondered and I don't know the answer for sure, because we never really know that one, because I felt like there was a shift when I met the person, the hiring manager in person, when she when the person finally got to sleep. And my mind is very visible. I use a wheelchair. It's very obvious. I just felt that the person wasn't as warm, wasn't as talkative. Maybe maybe this person had already made the decision.
I don't know, but it makes you wonder. It made me wonder many times, because I I spent too many years trying to get back and I was excited. And I don't think this is. This is a good for for my health, emotional and physical, to keep doing this and then we started again. So now happen.
Where do you think where do you think that shift? Why do you think that? Where did that come from or where did it where you feel like it started to? To change, I think it was it was at the corporate level or you think it's just specific H.R. people, because they had no issues getting a great job out of school.
Yeah, I think I mean, there are a number of factors, of course, when any one's being considered for a job. I think that one major one, and I'll be totally honest, is that I didn't have I made a career shift when I left business school. I didn't have a ton of years of experience in H.R. and I learned very quickly that that that worked for me. And people will credit your transferable skills, as we say. So I think that was a big factor.
And then I and all this other experience and mid level roles that I held, it was difficult for other employers who maybe wanted to hire me, but they felt like I would be getting a huge place. But at this point, in looking for a job or a year, I was willing to get a pay cut. I don't know if they maybe didn't believe me or what. But again, like there's there were a lot of factors. I think the main one, though, was that I wanted to stay in nature and they didn't have enough of that experience.
But I do wonder, too, whether it had to do with a disability, because Danieli, when we got married, we moved from Philadelphia, where we're from, to Phenix, Arizona, and we spent nine months there and we would go to career fair after career fair. And they had various levels of jobs, this career fair. And of course, they see you and see you in person. And I did get some momentum, but I wondered what people would always tell me, like they will often tell me, oh, your business.
Too impressive. Well, if it's one of words you're really bothering me, then I've done all that you asked. So it was it was frustrating. But again, like, I will never know. You can't say for sure what's going through these people's minds. And is it discrimination? I don't know. Is it because of your lack of experience? I don't think so.
I can like yeah, with I have a small business and I haven't hired a lot of people, but I've hired I've hired enough. Thankfully, I've only had to let go one person in 15 years, which is good thing. But the thing the thing that I think about, you know, little camera. Is how would I approach, right, hiring somebody, hiring somebody with a disability? And I, I think I would do really well at that because if you can do the work and I think you're a good fit, you can do the work.
Right. That's like I'm not going to ask. I'm not going to hire Viola to go install televisions and run away here, but I'm not going to do that myself. That's OK. Yeah, but. I would I would love to have. More diversity, more perspectives, more like to me, the key is what is this person going to bring to bring to the organization? What are they going to contribute? A value that we don't have right now, now?
And I wish more people saw it that way.
Yeah, the. Yeah, so. Well, that's why we're here, we're going to get to work on that exactly.
We're going to get exactly 100 percent working on that, so. My last question for you, this is what did I miss that you would love to talk about? Well.
Why are you putting me on the spot? I feel like I've been doing this a lot that I talked so much recently and it's wonderful and I'm so grateful for these opportunities to to talk about these topics are so important. I would say this, that. I mean, maybe it's me being hyper idealistic because my husband thinks I'm pretty sure he's convinced that I'm a bit of an idealist, but I do believe that if people took the time and I don't care who you are or where you are in the world, if people took the time to learn about disability, it has the power to reflect back your human.
And it consumes you and the world because fundamentally so we are very fragile beings, all of us, some more fragile than others. Well, but we have tremendous hubris into thinking that we're powerful and we're all knowing or we're in total control. And I just think what all the disillusion like what a bubble. So I encourage people to to to learn about disability. It's so vital.
And what are what are some of the ways that they can? Engage with people with disabilities and learn about it. Besides, besides the shoes, I was about to say, I know exactly what to think. So listen to this. I guess it's that I mean, that's really what people can do to start out with. Of course, link with other groups who are trying to gain Understanding Black Lives Matter movement. I mean, it's it's it's seeing other people and not ignoring them and reaching out and asking them, you know, trying to form a relationship with them.
It is a bit odd if you would just come up to this table person to be like randomly has a whole bunch of questions. But the point is to extend yourself because we have a horrible tendency to want to associate with only people like ourselves. This is hurting us. This is building a very contentious world, and I want I want to say to people that, you know, push yourself, I'm not saying let's be best friends with the girl in the wheelchair, but but, you know, did you ever ask her, like, how is how are you doing?
Or did you ever ask for. Did you ever try to form a relationship, even if it's an acquaintance level type relationship? These are the steps that people can do. And and of course. Surround yourself with really great content that we've already mentioned so that you can learn on your own as well.
Are there any books that you've read that you thought were in this area?
Yeah, so one or one book and I wish I had heard back from him when he says he used to be a reporter on ABC News, John Hockenberry, and he wrote a book called Moving Violations. This is one of my first books on the disability experience, and it blew my mind. It's one of the most honest and entertaining autobiographies that I've read so that when I highly recommend, even though he can never get back, I'm just going to be honest.
I really, really appreciate the response. But that's OK, John. I know you're busy. And the other one recently was called Disability Visibility. But Alice Wong and Alice is a huge disability activist. She's been on Twitter. And this book is a compilation of very diverse stories of disability. And I think it does a great job in giving people a really wide range of understanding disability experience.
Thank you for sharing. I think your what you said is absolutely beautiful and correct and I. I would encourage people to definitely get on our YouTube channel and engage with that subscriber like all that. But what I had a professor who used to say that to where I wouldn't tell me I was taking a graduate level course in underground philosophy course had come in. And I criticize the philosopher instead of engaging with content. Let me criticize something about this philosophers background, private life that I didn't like.
And the professor would just say, look, that doesn't change whether or not he was engaged with engaged with you don't judge the person and that coming out of like where. And the other thing he would say is what you said, we're all fallible. We're all we're all human. So let's engage as best we can in right now. We're starting to think let's engage and let's evaluate that on its own. I would say let's evaluate all. On some slightly deeper levels than just what we see on the surface, we think we know about that person in five seconds of judging.
Let's let's take that animal response. Put it on the back burner, right, for a little bit and think with our brains and say, how can we actually that's responding versus reacting and see people a little bit more deeply and a little bit more intelligently engage with them and what they're here, but what they're here to contribute and share. And we don't do that in.
Thank you, Gustavo, for having me again.
Very welcome. Thank you so much for being here. And I look forward to more episodes.
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